Revelation of convenience

[Palerider]

I've noticed in some of my reading that one of the consistent criticisms (by members and non-members alike) of Joseph Smith, during his own time, was that he was receiving revelations of "convenience". It seemed like every time his leadership was threatened or one of his prophecies didn't work out, he would suddenly receive a "revelation" that would bail him out.....or at least attempt to.

With that in mind I was thinking about how the saints in Missouri had been commanded by The Lord through Joseph to build the temple in Missouri, how they had gotten themselves into trouble with their neighbors and how miserably they had failed in the temple building attempt even though they apparently gave it their best shot.

My question here is does anyone else find the comparison of the following two scriptures odd or troubling? Is this a perfect example of a revelation of convenience?

1 Nephi 3:7

"And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them."

D&C 124:49

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, that when I give a commandment to any of the sons of men to do a work unto my name, and those sons of men go with all their might and with all they have to perform that work, and cease not their diligence, and their enemies come upon them and hinder them from performing that work, behold, it behooveth me to require that work no more at the hands of those sons of men, but to accept of their offerings."

Kind of ironic isn't it? The way circumstances seem to change the way God works from one time to another in Joseph Smith's little world.... I suppose an apologist would tell us here that we're lucky to have continuing revelation to help us with the circumstances of angry neighbors.

I'm thinking that Joseph and all of his successors fall much more comfortably into the category of "Soothsayers" rather than prophets. The irony here is that either one of these passages taken by themselves SEEM to make sense. It's only when someone starts thinking, "Hey wait a minute...." that the contrast gets exposed.

But that's not how the church arranges it's correlated lessons. It's very good at cherry picking what they need to get a particular end result. And I at least for quite some time just seemed to be a bobble head doll that just kept eating the pabulum. Just crazy when you think about it.

[deacon blues]

Thanks Pale. I think I will cross reference those two verses in my scriptures.

[orangganjil]

You should read about John Corrill and the events surrounding his life in the church. There were a lot of complaints in Kirtland and Missouri about Joseph's convenient revelations. Newel Whitney and John Corrill were pretty active in pushing back against that stuff. Whitney eventually caved while Corrill told Joseph to go pound sand. His story is fascinating.

You can read it in chapter two of "Differing Visions: DISSENTERS IN MORMON HISTORY". The chapter about Corrill is called "'Such Republicanism As This': John Corrill's Rejection of Prophetic Rule".

[Palerider]

You should read about John Corrill and the events surrounding his life in the church. There were a lot of complaints in Kirtland and Missouri about Joseph's convenient revelations. Newel Whitney and John Corrill were pretty active in pushing back against that stuff. Whitney eventually caved while Corrill told Joseph to go pound sand. His story is fascinating.

You can read it in chapter two of "Differing Visions: DISSENTERS IN MORMON HISTORY". The chapter about Corrill is called "'Such Republicanism As This': John Corrill's Rejection of Prophetic Rule".

Thanks orangganjil, I'll look him up!

[moksha]

"The Lord says to turn left at the next intersection and that you should forgive His humble navigator when you find out about young Fanny, Zeke's wife Heather, and the widow Sofia."

[Hagoth]

Good one, Pale Rider. I always thought it was incredibly convenient that the Lord commanded the building of a hotel for Joseph and his family "let my servant Joseph and his seed after him have place in that house, from generation to generation, forever and ever," and then commanded a list of individuals by name to invest in it.

By the way, this is a failed prophesy, at least the generation to generation part.

[wtfluff]

Once you take a step back from the indoctrination, MUCH of the D&C is self-serving and narcissistic as far as Joseph is concerned...

[Anon70]

Once you take a step back from the indoctrination, MUCH of the D&C is self-serving and narcissistic as far as Joseph is concerned...

Years ago I decided to read d&c one summer. The whole time I kept thinking how convenient all of his revelations were. I put all those uncomfortable feelings on my shelf. I think that was the beginning of my dislike of JS. I agree-totally self-serving and narcissistic.

[Charlotte]

This was a deal-breaker for me. Tell me an angel came and commanded polygamy, and I have no real frame of reference for saying it's impossible. But let me read the scenario below, and I am quite sure JS was a fabricator. Or at least a fabricator on this subject.

The last verse of D&C 132 states “I will reveal more unto you, hereafter.” Just over two months later, Joseph Smith received a revelation regarding martial harmony in polygamous relationships. In addition to his first wife, William Clayton had married two sisters, and wanted to marry a third – Lydia Moon. He asked Joseph Smith about it. Clayton recorded:

“President Joseph told me he had lately had a new item of law revealed to him in relation to myself. He said the Lord had revealed to him that a man could only take 2 of a family except by express revelation and as I had said I intended to take Lydia he made this known for my benefit. To have more than two in a family was apt to cause wrangles and trouble. He finally asked if I would not give L[ydia] to him. I said I would so far as I had anything to do in it. He requested me to talk to her.”

Lydia refused Smith’s proposal.

- See more at: http://www.withoutend.org/polygamy-reve ... DTdz9.dpuf

[LaMachina]

Sure, it's a revelation of convenience but I'm wondering if almost all revelations fall into that category? Any "revelation" that falls too far into the inconvenient ledger will likely ostracize the group and result in them dying off or it will be changed eventually, wouldn't it? You say this about Joseph:

The way circumstances seem to change the way God works from one time to another in Joseph Smith's little world

But it seems to me this is a very consistent trend within the business of religion.

There is a difference between "revelations" that say - 'God says give me your women and give me your money', (two things Joseph was definitely guilty of and are definitely distasteful) and your example of - 'God told us to do something, we tried and it didn't work and/or was really inconvenient and now God is telling us to do something else.'

When I think of that example I think of Peter's revelation to bring the gospel to the Gentiles. Jesus said not to but then in a dream after his death he said we should and it pretty brilliantly opens up this young religion to all sorts of opportunities. In much the same way, the apostles argued over whether circumcision was required (pretty inconvenient!!) and the decision is eventually no. A very convenient revelation maybe? If not a doctrinal change at the very least a smart reversal of policy??

Personally I think I would welcome far more revelations of convenience as opposed to the incessant kicking against the pricks we see too often from the faithful.

[Hagoth]

Once you take a step back from the indoctrination, MUCH of the D&C is self-serving and narcissistic as far as Joseph is concerned...

Years ago I decided to read d&c one summer. The whole time I kept thinking how convenient all of his revelations were. I put all those uncomfortable feelings on my shelf. I think that was the beginning of my dislike of JS. I agree-totally self-serving and narcissistic.

Try reading it as a complete non-believer , especially keeping in mind things like secret polygamy and the changes from the Book of Commandments. Also, what very few members comprehend when reading the D&C is that Zion is the city they failed to build I'm Missouri. The church has entirely redefined the word but many things in the D&C read quite differently​ when the correct context is applied.

Also, God keeps talking about some people called Lamanites who seem to be all over the place, even though the current church has decided that God was mistaken about that.

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

After reading Staker's book giving all the cultural context for the revelations, I'm pretty well convinced Joseph was perfectly adept at creating opportunity out of everything in his environment. Revelations of opportunity at every turn.

[AllieOop]

You should read about John Corrill and the events surrounding his life in the church. There were a lot of complaints in Kirtland and Missouri about Joseph's convenient revelations. Newel Whitney and John Corrill were pretty active in pushing back against that stuff. Whitney eventually caved while Corrill told Joseph to go pound sand. His story is fascinating.

You can read it in chapter two of "Differing Visions: DISSENTERS IN MORMON HISTORY". The chapter about Corrill is called "'Such Republicanism As This': John Corrill's Rejection of Prophetic Rule".

I couldn't agree more. John Corrill's writings are fascinating and he is a contemporary source. His book: A Brief History of the Church of Christ of Latter Day Saints (Commonly Called Mormons) was a huge eye opener for me regarding what really took place in Missouri (he wrote it in 1839).

You can order a reprint for only $10.14 and I highly recommend it. I couldn't put it down and still refer to it often. John Corrill was an insider who knew much and then revealed much afterwards ("John Corrill was an early member and leader of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and an elected representative in the Missouri State Legislature. He was prominently involved in the Mormon conflicts in Missouri before leaving the church in 1839 and publishing A Brief History of the Church of Christ of Latter Day Saints").

Here's a link to his book:

https://www.amazon.com/History-Commonly ... hn+corrill

[AllieOop]

Sure, it's a revelation of convenience but I'm wondering if almost all revelations fall into that category?

Great question. I think you're right here.

Two of my favorite revelations of convenience (there are many ) are:

- Joseph miraculously receiving a revelation that the saints needed to start paying tithing a few days after he proposed that he and Sidney Rigdon needed to start being paid a salary (and the saints voted "no" on that).

- Joseph hearing there was a treasure buried in a cellar of a certain house in Salem, so he took some other men with him and traveled there. They ended up buying a house....searching and digging....but no money was ever found.

Here's the revelation he received for this (D&C 111:2)
"I have much treasure in this city for you, for the benefit of Zion, and many people in this city, whom I will gather out in due time for the benefit of Zion, through your instrumentality."

Of course, there was no treasure to be found. So afterwards, Joseph stated the treasure must have meant "a spiritual treasure of planting seeds for future preaching of the Gospel in Salem".

What's kind of funny is that the introduction to this section still states this about the "treasure":

"At this time the leaders of the Church were heavily in debt due to their labors in the ministry. Hearing that a large amount of money would be available to them in Salem, the Prophet, Sidney Rigdon, Hyrum Smith, and Oliver Cowdery traveled there from Kirtland, Ohio, to investigate this claim, along with preaching the gospel. The brethren transacted several items of church business and did some preaching. When it became apparent that no money was to be forthcoming, they returned to Kirtland."


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[AllieOop]

Ok...I have to add this one

Joseph's convenient and sudden revelation that a man can only marry TWO sisters from the same family (not three or more). When William Clayton (who had already taken his first wife's sister as a plural wife) wanted to marry their younger sister, he went to Joseph for approval. Well, Joseph wanted her for himself. So miraculously he had a revelation that stated the Lord allowed a man to marry only two sisters, so he told Clayton "no" and then went himself and asked the other sister to marry him.

What's funny is the 3rd sister turned Joseph down flat.

(These were the Moon sisters....)

[Thoughtful]

Sure, it's a revelation of convenience but I'm wondering if almost all revelations fall into that category?

Great question. I think you're right here.

Two of my favorite revelations of convenience (there are many ) are:

- Joseph miraculously receiving a revelation that the saints needed to start paying tithing a few days after he proposed that he and Sidney Rigdon needed to start being paid a salary (and the saints voted "no" on that).

- Joseph hearing there was a treasure buried in a cellar of a certain house in Salem, so he took some other men with him and traveled there. They ended up buying a house....searching and digging....but no money was ever found.

Here's the revelation he received for this (D&C 111:2)
"I have much a treasure in this city for you, for the benefit of Zion, and many people in this city, whom I will gather out in due time for the benefit of Zion, through your instrumentality."

Of course, there was no treasure to be found. So afterwards, Joseph stated the treasure much have meant "a spiritual treasure of planting seeds for future preaching of the Gospel in Salem".

What's kind of funny is that the introduction to this sections still states this about the "treasure":

"At this time the leaders of the Church were heavily in debt due to their labors in the ministry. Hearing that a large amount of money would be available to them in Salem, the Prophet, Sidney Rigdon, Hyrum Smith, and Oliver Cowdery traveled there from Kirtland, Ohio, to investigate this claim, along with preaching the gospel. The brethren transacted several items of church business and did some preaching. When it became apparent that no money was to be forthcoming, they returned to Kirtland."


***********************

The treasure story makes it sound like JS believed he was really having revelations.

Also the WOW is the big one. Wife is pissed at cleaning up after tobacco, suddenly there's a revelation. Instead of just saying, "hey guys don't be gross" it's, "God says."

[orangganjil]

I couldn't agree more. John Corrill's writings are fascinating and he is a contemporary source. His book: A Brief History of the Church of Christ of Latter Day Saints (Commonly Called Mormons) was a huge eye opener for me regarding what really took place in Missouri (he wrote it in 1839).

You can order a reprint for only $10.14 and I highly recommend it. I couldn't put it down and still refer to it often. John Corrill was an insider who knew much and then revealed much afterwards ("John Corrill was an early member and leader of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and an elected representative in the Missouri State Legislature. He was prominently involved in the Mormon conflicts in Missouri before leaving the church in 1839 and publishing A Brief History of the Church of Christ of Latter Day Saints").

Here's a link to his book:

https://www.amazon.com/History-Commonly ... hn+corrill

Corrill was well-respected by both the Mormons and non-Mormons, too. To me he is one of the most fascinating people in church history because I agree with so many of his perspectives. He seems level-headed and didn't take kindly to tyrants. Fascinating stuff and it's always great to hear of another Corrill fan.

[Palerider]

Just finished reading Corrill's history and it makes it quite plain that the poor people who had entered Mormonism had no competent leadership in either Smith or Rigdon. It sounds like a complete tragedy of people sincerely trying to follow an imposter who continues to blame members for all of their problems or the enemies of the church who have been created by members following Smith's bad policies. In reality the fault lies mainly at the feet of Joseph and his leaders. They really had no clue what they were doing because truthfully they weren't being directed by God at all.

One other thing I found interesting was that Corrill mentions the Melchizedek priesthood being given to the "elders" as an "endowment" in Kirtland.

I've heard numerous times that the correlated church version of having the Melchizedek priesthood restored BEFORE the church was organized was really different from the real story. Even Brigham Young makes statements that the church was founded upon the Aaronic priesthood. Corrill has no reason to be lying about something like this. He's just relating what was happening at the time of all the turmoil and the thing about the priesthood endowment is almost an incidental occurrence he's relating.

One of his last statements regarding Joseph is the icing on the cake. Essentially he says that if Joseph had been more "Christian" in his attitude and not so lustful for power and material wealth he probably would have stayed out of trouble and been unstoppable.

Imagine that.........

[Corsair]

To what extent do "revelations of convenience" occur today? My guess is that while most sections of the church stay relatively conservative and don't do anything too radical. But the promptings of the spirit are assumed whenever a leader at any level feels some fear that performance of his stewardship is lacking. At that point something new within his jurisdiction is tried. If successful, credit is given to God while failure is chalked up to a mortal trial, blamed on Satan, or the leader is released and put in Primary.

Lowering the age of missionaries seems to fall in this category. I'm sure that LDS leadership did some planning on this project. It probably seemed like a good move and they have a bunch of faith promoting stories that came out from it. It nearly got one of my children on a mission. Statistically, I doubt it has helped beyond the initial surge. But it was a convenient bump in excitement over missionary work for a couple of years. It was modern, up to date revelation for many members.

[deacon blues]

To what extent do "revelations of convenience" occur today? My guess is that while most sections of the church stay relatively conservative and don't do anything too radical. But the promptings of the spirit are assumed whenever a leader at any level feels some fear that performance of his stewardship is lacking. At that point something new within his jurisdiction is tried. If successful, credit is given to God while failure is chalked up to a mortal trial, blamed on Satan, or the leader is released and put in Primary.

Lowering the age of missionaries seems to fall in this category. I'm sure that LDS leadership did some planning on this project. It probably seemed like a good move and they have a bunch of faith promoting stories that came out from it. It nearly got one of my children on a mission. Statistically, I doubt it has helped beyond the initial surge. But it was a convenient bump in excitement over missionary work for a couple of years. It was modern, up to date revelation for many members.

Obviously, to me anyway, polygamy was a revelation/manifesto of convenience. The Church had it's back against the wall, and Woodruff comes out with a vague pronouncement; (vs. a "thus saith the Lord") then later, a backstory that makes it seem more inspired and definitive is added. Kind of like the boy scouts waffling of today. Twenty years down the road we may hear how Thomas Monson, with a little help from God, boldly set up a new inspired program, that lifted the young men of the church to greater heights.