How to talk to TBMs?

[Linked]

I had a rough Saturday, that bled into Sunday with the TBMs in my life. I went to the BYU game and rode with my brother and SIL. We talked a little about my situation with the church, and everything was going fine. SIL asked if I went to church and how all that works, stating that if my brother didn't believe she would tell him she didn't want him there because his presence would be annoying. They asked what the plan was for baptizing the kids, which is a sore spot with few desirable outcomes for me. I showed some of the frustration I felt and then the conversation got a little more confrontational. They were nice about it, and listened to my views and validated my feelings, but they just don't understand that there are real issues with the way the church handles things. They hide behind bad behavior being a problem with individual people not doing the gospel right. My brother just got called into his bishopric and is steeped in handbook reading and extolled how great the handbooks are. That got me mad, because the handbook tells me I can't confirm my son without a temple recommend. But he loves having rules, so the handbook is a godsend for him. We also talked about Oaks' comment about not having gay children with partners stay overnight or taking them out with friends so they don't look like they condone the lifestyle.

They dropped me off at my car which was at my couple missionary parent's house. I was a little shaken by the conversation, I need to get better at these discussions but don't know how. I went inside to chat with my parents for a few minutes. We had a nice conversation. In the middle of it my SIL asked me for the reference to Oak's comment. So I dug it up for her while I was with my parents.

Fast forward to Sunday evening, and I got an email from my mom about how she sees me looking for the negative in the church. She compared me to her brother, my apostate uncle. For some reason that hurt. Then she bore her testimony about how she KNOWS stuff. Then she brought up that I once asked her not to pray for bad things for me or my family to bring me back and said that she won't pray for it but worries that my choices will bring bad things to myself and family. She didn't clarify if that would be punishments for sin, or things that naturally occur if you separate yourself from the church, like separation from the church. But I'm sure whatever happens to me that she considers bad will be assumed to be caused by my "bad" behavior.

I have not taken the offensive in religious discussions, but I have typically tried to respond honestly to comments or emails. I'm not sure how to respond to this. She made a point to include me in a blessing for her a few weeks ago. But this is such drivel. Do I tell her that her church twisting the meaning of the word KNOW, and that she sounds like a 4 year old telling me she KNOWS she is the fastest person alive? Do I get conciliatory and tell her I can tell she loves me because she sends me emails of warning, even if I disagree with the warning? Do I call her out on the ominous warning against harm coming to my life because I follow my conscience?

This is hard. Do I just interact less with TBMs and find a new family and friends?

[Enoch Witty]

This is hard. Do I just interact less with TBMs and find a new family and friends?

I ask myself the same question, often.

My family (both extended and of origin) love to send unsolicited advice. Some of it is very insulting and judgmental. Like the aunt who emailed me basically saying I was going to destroy my marriage. Or the aunt recently randomly texted several of my cousins in the middle of the night to encourage us to to teach boys that they are boys and girls that they are girls, because *she* feels so overwhelmingly female and how could anybody else differ in their feelings? She also warned to stay away from "antis", as they only want to make you unhappy. And my mom, man. She's been using guilt and shame as a primary motivator for as long as I can remember.

What I do is ignore them completely. If they want to have a conversation, I am happy to talk. But if they want to preach, or offer "sage wisdom," or challenge me on my firmly held beliefs while expecting me to tiptoe around theirs... I just don't respond. Of course, I live 2000-3000 miles away from virtually all family, so it's a little easier for me.

But that's what it's come down to: I've adopted the motto of "don't start none, won't be none." Which is to say: "don't start talking religious nonsense to me, or there will not be a conversation between us anymore."

[Emower]

Nobody really wants to talk with me about it anymore, even though I am more than happy to engage. People around me generally end up retreating to testimony and feels, and they know that that is not going to cut it for me. I have told them that unless they are willing to engage their brain a little bit and perhaps read some of the evidence I have read that the divide is to large to cross. So far, only my wife has taken me up on it. Although one of my siblings has read some stuff, he still retreats to testimony and feels. Being pretty up front about what is required for a conversation has been positive I think. Set some ground rules about how conversations should proceed, and if those rules are not met, don't have the conversation.

[Red Ryder]

You can learn two very effective ways to communicate with TBMs.

1. Don't
2. Don't

[wtfluff]

If it were me in this situation, I would try and set some boundaries, and then quote the 11th article of faith, early, and often.

(And Red Ryder's advice, since we were posting at the same time...)

[SeeNoEvil]

I no longer talk to TBM's about the reasons I left. You just can't because they will always do just what your family did and is still doing to you. They act all interested and then blast you with their apologetic crap and testimonies. Now, if asked, I say, "If you really have questions then I can give you some reliable websites to read. When you've read them then we can discuss" I always start with the churches own essays. If they want to know more then I move to the CES letter ..... more? Then MormonThink. I have had only one family member want to know more and by the time she got to the end of MormonThink she was done. .... at age 78! I used to think that as a mature adult I could have an open discussion with other mature adults who were TBM on what I have found. What I found was they don't really want to hear it. Good luck with this.

[Linked]

It looks like 4 votes for not talking about religion with TBMs, and 1 vote for go ahead but expect them to stop bringing it up.

My personality is one that I really do want to talk about it. I want to discuss it, then yell at each other about it, then apologize and do it again. I've not brought the topics up typically because I don't want to wear my family out, and there are definitely certain people who would not like to have it ever brought up, so I try to respect their wishes. But then the discussions end up feeling like talking to a self-righteous and judgemental wall.

Growing up, my family life included lots of interesting discussions, typically revolving around church topics. If I lose that then a huge part of my relationship with my family is gone. You guys know how much discussion revolves around church in a TBM home. This makes me sad.

I think I'll give openness a try with my mom. I will do my best to be anthropological about it and try to stay out of the emotions. Then when she doesn't speak to me for a while I will learn my lesson and stop talking about it... I think I have to learn this one the hard way.

[Hermey]

This is hard. Do I just interact less with TBMs and find a new family and friends?

Perhaps. But regardless of what you do, you need to read this.... Standing For Something More: The Excommunication of Lyndon Lamborn

It will help you understand why and how they react and think the way they do. I wish I had read this when I was first beginning my journey down the rabbit hole. It will change how you interact with TBM friends and family. Hopefully it will make things a little easier and lead to more positive interactions.

[Linked]

This is hard. Do I just interact less with TBMs and find a new family and friends?

Perhaps. But regardless of what you do, you need to read this.... Standing For Something More: The Excommunication of Lyndon Lamborn

It will help you understand why and how they react and think the way they do. I wish I had read this when I was first beginning my journey down the rabbit hole. It will change how you interact with TBM friends and family. Hopefully it will make things a little easier and lead to more positive interactions.

Thanks for the recommendation!

[Linked]

Here's my response to my mom:

Hi Mom,

I read your email a few times and have been thinking about how to respond since receiving it. I considered ignoring it or not being open, but I choose openness and honesty; that's who I am and that hasn't changed yet (it may, depending on how this is received and how conversations with others go). Reading your email hurt, but emails like this are not unexpected. I appreciate that you care about me enough to try to call me back to what you consider happiness and safety. With that said, it hurts to know that you consider me veering into danger as I do my best to be the best me I can be (though again, not unexpected). It also hurts that you would try to scare me into changing my ways. For some reason it hurts to be compared to [Apostate Uncle]; he holds a scary place in my psyche.

You said you are worried that I am seeking negative things about the church to prove it wrong. I can see why you would feel that way, but from my perspective your faith causes you to avoid negative things about the church and turning anything and everything into something to prove the church right. I find this approach intellectually dishonest, and is one of the main things that led my beliefs away from the church. It is not a way to find real truth, but a way to convince yourself that your beliefs are true regardless of the actual truth.

I do have antagonistic feelings toward the church. I got these from re-evaluating my experience with the church from a new worldview. I like to be right. I like to have truth. I was taught as a kid that I had it in the church and I believed that. Later I learned some things that suggest that my basis of believing the church's truth was not valid, like feelings indicating truth or having faith is a pre-requisite for finding truth. These things bothered me as a believer, I would squirm in sacrament meeting when people would share stories that didn't really make sense. After years of ignoring these thoughts and feelings, one day I found I could no longer ignore what they meant about what I had believed my entire life. I spent the next couple years ignoring my feelings about the church because what does someone in my situation do with that? My hand was eventually forced, and I had a fascinating time re-evaluating each experience I had with new eyes.

What I see now in the church is indoctrination and social pressure. I see people forcing themselves to do uncomfortable things for the church that they know are weird but are convinced that their feelings make the church true, and if it is true than the discomfort is worth it. Like on my mission, I was very uncomfortable selling the church to the people of Japan, I met some people who seemed really happy and didn't seem to need my church, but I was going to push it on them anyway because they were damned without it, and they would be happier with it. I see that the church has taken the word KNOW and twisted it to mean believe really strongly even though those 2 things are very different. The church uses phrases like "Tender Mercies" to prime people to see a random world as having the meaning that the church wants it to. The church latches onto stories that agree with it and discounts anything that disagrees even if true. Other organizations do the same thing, but I don't like that they do it either, and I don't think it is a good way to live.

This is very different from what the typical member of the church sees. As I saw these differences I felt like I would burst at the seams because people just didn't get it!!! The feelings are similar to how I felt trying to get Japanese people to believe me about church stuff. We had a girl in my first area who attended regularly but said she prayed about the Book of Mormon and didn't get an answer, so she didn't want to be baptized. I thought she just didn't get it, maybe she didn't read with an open heart, or she didn't pray fervently, or something, but it was clear she didn't get it. I assume you have similar feelings now with the people you work with and with me.

So to cope with my situation I found a community online with people who are in similar situations and understand. I vent there, and they understand. Sometimes those people tell me I am being stupid, other times they validate my feelings. I am also unavoidably exposed to other people's concerns about the church. Some of them don't bother me. Others I find compelling. I try to maintain what I think of each of these things, not just parrot what others have said, and I try not to be taken in by false information. I am not perfect at this but I try. These things I learn are not what made me realize I don't believe, but they do support that view. At some point I would like to be at a point where I do not need support from the internet, but I am not there yet. I wish I could have the support from my family, but I understand the issues with that, so I'm doing the best I can.

So I do see things the church does negatively, and I have found new things that I consider negative. I also try to keep a reasonable perspective and recognize the good the church can do, like the work they are organizing for hurricane relief and the way they opened up the chapels for those displaced by the hurricane flooding. But I refuse to accept the things that I consider negative as positives, and I refuse to ignore true things that are negative. I think this is fair. "...[L]ook at the good in the gospel and forget about the bad" is not fair, I ask you to consider if you would do that with anything other than the church. It is difficult to watch others ignore truth and tell you that you are the one who is wrong.

I would love to hear more about you and dad and how you handled each other's religious differences. When did you stop worrying about him? Did you feel comfortable that he was "in enough", or just learn to live with him being different? I assume he was frustrated that you didn't see the importance of the things he considered important?


From your son with love,
Linked

[Korihor]

Nobody really wants to talk with me about it anymore, even though I am more than happy to engage.

Yup

I simply try to find other things to talk about. Easier said than done sometimes.

[Anon70]

Here's my response to my mom:

Hi Mom,

I read your email a few times and have been thinking about how to respond since receiving it. I considered ignoring it or not being open, but I choose openness and honesty; that's who I am and that hasn't changed yet (it may, depending on how this is received and how conversations with others go). Reading your email hurt, but emails like this are not unexpected. I appreciate that you care about me enough to try to call me back to what you consider happiness and safety. With that said, it hurts to know that you consider me veering into danger as I do my best to be the best me I can be (though again, not unexpected). It also hurts that you would try to scare me into changing my ways. For some reason it hurts to be compared to [Apostate Uncle]; he holds a scary place in my psyche.

You said you are worried that I am seeking negative things about the church to prove it wrong. I can see why you would feel that way, but from my perspective your faith causes you to avoid negative things about the church and turning anything and everything into something to prove the church right. I find this approach intellectually dishonest, and is one of the main things that led my beliefs away from the church. It is not a way to find real truth, but a way to convince yourself that your beliefs are true regardless of the actual truth.

I do have antagonistic feelings toward the church. I got these from re-evaluating my experience with the church from a new worldview. I like to be right. I like to have truth. I was taught as a kid that I had it in the church and I believed that. Later I learned some things that suggest that my basis of believing the church's truth was not valid, like feelings indicating truth or having faith is a pre-requisite for finding truth. These things bothered me as a believer, I would squirm in sacrament meeting when people would share stories that didn't really make sense. After years of ignoring these thoughts and feelings, one day I found I could no longer ignore what they meant about what I had believed my entire life. I spent the next couple years ignoring my feelings about the church because what does someone in my situation do with that? My hand was eventually forced, and I had a fascinating time re-evaluating each experience I had with new eyes.

What I see now in the church is indoctrination and social pressure. I see people forcing themselves to do uncomfortable things for the church that they know are weird but are convinced that their feelings make the church true, and if it is true than the discomfort is worth it. Like on my mission, I was very uncomfortable selling the church to the people of Japan, I met some people who seemed really happy and didn't seem to need my church, but I was going to push it on them anyway because they were damned without it, and they would be happier with it. I see that the church has taken the word KNOW and twisted it to mean believe really strongly even though those 2 things are very different. The church uses phrases like "Tender Mercies" to prime people to see a random world as having the meaning that the church wants it to. The church latches onto stories that agree with it and discounts anything that disagrees even if true. Other organizations do the same thing, but I don't like that they do it either, and I don't think it is a good way to live.

This is very different from what the typical member of the church sees. As I saw these differences I felt like I would burst at the seams because people just didn't get it!!! The feelings are similar to how I felt trying to get Japanese people to believe me about church stuff. We had a girl in my first area who attended regularly but said she prayed about the Book of Mormon and didn't get an answer, so she didn't want to be baptized. I thought she just didn't get it, maybe she didn't read with an open heart, or she didn't pray fervently, or something, but it was clear she didn't get it. I assume you have similar feelings now with the people you work with and with me.

So to cope with my situation I found a community online with people who are in similar situations and understand. I vent there, and they understand. Sometimes those people tell me I am being stupid, other times they validate my feelings. I am also unavoidably exposed to other people's concerns about the church. Some of them don't bother me. Others I find compelling. I try to maintain what I think of each of these things, not just parrot what others have said, and I try not to be taken in by false information. I am not perfect at this but I try. These things I learn are not what made me realize I don't believe, but they do support that view. At some point I would like to be at a point where I do not need support from the internet, but I am not there yet. I wish I could have the support from my family, but I understand the issues with that, so I'm doing the best I can.

So I do see things the church does negatively, and I have found new things that I consider negative. I also try to keep a reasonable perspective and recognize the good the church can do, like the work they are organizing for hurricane relief and the way they opened up the chapels for those displaced by the hurricane flooding. But I refuse to accept the things that I consider negative as positives, and I refuse to ignore true things that are negative. I think this is fair. "...[L]ook at the good in the gospel and forget about the bad" is not fair, I ask you to consider if you would do that with anything other than the church. It is difficult to watch others ignore truth and tell you that you are the one who is wrong.

I would love to hear more about you and dad and how you handled each other's religious differences. When did you stop worrying about him? Did you feel comfortable that he was "in enough", or just learn to live with him being different? I assume he was frustrated that you didn't see the importance of the things he considered important?


From your son with love,
Linked

This is respectful and logical. I hope she responds positively. My perspective is that responding keeps this going. She'll could continue to think she can say things like this to you. For me, nothing beats good old "ignore". You are an adult...and according to her religion, you have agency. Even if she feels an accountability/stewardship for you, she can keep it to herself. It's hard to have a discussion/fight alone.

I guess I am lucky in that my parents know that I don't believe but they don't bug me much about it anymore. I refuse to engage mostly and I am pretty darn good with boundaries. I don't allow them to overstep much and if they do, walls go up higher. Since they want a relationship with me and my kids, they are fairly good about being respectful.

If this email works towards better communication, great. But if not...disengage.

[2bizE]

I would recommend sharing your testimony of facts...
I know JS went in that grove of trees and had a marvelous experience. It was so amazing that he promptly returned home and didn't talk to anyone or write about it for at least 12 years.
I know that JS translated the BOM using a magic rock he would place in a hat, incidentally, a few years prior he was convicted of being a con artist or glass looker as they called it in those days for using the same rock in the hat trick to find buried treasure.
I know without any doubt that JS was visited by an angel with a flaming sword and was commanded to marry his young foster daughter, which would also guarantee her eternal life.
I know that Brigham young was racists and took the philosophies of men and mingled them with scripture to create a false doctrine of denying blacks the priesthood and temple blessings. Luckily today, the prophets have condemned this false doctrine and have restored the priesthood to all worthy men...

If you get this far on your testimony you have very patient TBMs or perhaps future NOMs.

The other recommend method of saying nothing to your TBMs and patiently waiting for them to defect is the best strategy.

[Linked]

I would recommend sharing your testimony of facts...
I know JS went in that grove of trees and had a marvelous experience. It was so amazing that he promptly returned home and didn't talk to anyone or write about it for at least 12 years.
I know that JS translated the BOM using a magic rock he would place in a hat, incidentally, a few years prior he was convicted of being a con artist or glass looker as they called it in those days for using the same rock in the hat trick to find buried treasure.
I know without any doubt that JS was visited by an angel with a flaming sword and was commanded to marry his young foster daughter, which would also guarantee her eternal life.
I know that Brigham young was racists and took the philosophies of men and mingled them with scripture to create a false doctrine of denying blacks the priesthood and temple blessings. Luckily today, the prophets have condemned this false doctrine and have restored the priesthood to all worthy men...

If you get this far on your testimony you have very patient TBMs or perhaps future NOMs.

The other recommend method of saying nothing to your TBMs and patiently waiting for them to defect is the best strategy.

I purposely leave those things out because that is not what led me out of the church. For me it was seeing the church act like an MLM, watching people use faulty epistemology, then learning about confirmation bias. Let those stew for a couple years, then viola! A disaffected church member is ready to be taken out of the oven.

I only learned about the historical issues after coming to NOM and reddit. Sometimes that stuff comes up in discussions, but I try to stick to my issues when describing my reasons for leaving.

If our relationships can't handle open discussion then I will stop, but I think for both sides we need to wear each other out before assuming we can't be open about our religious feelings.

[wtfluff]

Have you looked into "Street Epistemology" at all?

Maybe you could start using some of those methods to turn the conversation to your family's beliefs, and try to get them talking about "why" they actually believe what the believe...

[SeeNoEvil]

Linked your letter to your mom was beautiful, caring and respectful. I can tell it came straight from your heart. I hope she will read and re-read and be open to an adult conversation. My mom and dad would probably not be to receptive to this type of letter but if I were to receive something like this from a child I know I would read it and think about what they said. Everyone processes things differently and I hope something very positive comes from this.

If that doesn't happen then I would go with what Anon70 posted:

This is respectful and logical. I hope she responds positively. My perspective is that responding keeps this going. She'll could continue to think she can say things like this to you. For me, nothing beats good old "ignore". You are an adult...and according to her religion, you have agency. Even if she feels an accountability/stewardship for you, she can keep it to herself. It's hard to have a discussion/fight alone.

[Just This Guy]

It depends on the person. How confrontational they are and how much you interact with them outside the church. If they don't interact with you without the church, then there is no reason to engage with them. I would simply setup your e-mail to send anything from them to the trash automatically. Block them on Facebook, etc.

If you do have to interact with them on topics other than church, then you have to look at your situation and see what would work best. Maybe setup something to block messages that contain common trigger words or phrases.

[Enoch Witty]

I purposely leave those things out because that is not what led me out of the church. For me it was seeing the church act like an MLM, watching people use faulty epistemology, then learning about confirmation bias. Let those stew for a couple years, then viola! A disaffected church member is ready to be taken out of the oven.

I only learned about the historical issues after coming to NOM and reddit. Sometimes that stuff comes up in discussions, but I try to stick to my issues when describing my reasons for leaving.

If our relationships can't handle open discussion then I will stop, but I think for both sides we need to wear each other out before assuming we can't be open about our religious feelings.

I left because I was never happy at church (even though I tried really hard to "fake it until you make it"), because I think the church is homophobic af, and because the drive for conformity and shaming when you don't conform don't jive with my personality at all. I was fully indoctrinated into thinking I was a broken person until one day I found the Mormon Stories podcast. That was only like a year ago. It blew my mind that there were so many other disaffected people out there like me. And I've always been a skeptic in so many areas, so it's surprising it took so long, but apparently I really took the "stay away from anti-Mormon literature" thing to heart. Probably because deep down I always knew it would persuade me and then I would have all kinds of issues with my family. And what do you know?

I digress. My point is that I left not for historical reasons but personal/contemporary ones, but I found out all the historical lies and whitewashing in the months after I left. And even though those weren't my original reasons, they are still among the biggest issues I have. The amount of guilt I felt over this organization that requires perfect accountability from me was extreme. And then I find out they've been lying to me about details large and small my entire life? The historical stuff may not be the reason I left, but it's the reason that I'm angry.

If the historical stuff bothers you, by all means, claim it as one of "your" reasons. Just because it wasn't in your initial list of reasons doesn't mean it's not valid.

[Linked]

Have you looked into "Street Epistemology" at all?

Maybe you could start using some of those methods to turn the conversation to your family's beliefs, and try to get them talking about "why" they actually believe what the believe...

I just looked it up here. It shares some similarities with the commitment pattern they taught me at the MTC, at the beginning anyway. I will have to give it a try. I like that it focuses on the epistemology people use. I would feel like I was being manipulative if I over-use it though.

Linked your letter to your mom was beautiful, caring and respectful. I can tell it came straight from your heart. I hope she will read and re-read and be open to an adult conversation. My mom and dad would probably not be to receptive to this type of letter but if I were to receive something like this from a child I know I would read it and think about what they said. Everyone processes things differently and I hope something very positive comes from this.

If that doesn't happen then I would go with what Anon70 posted:

This is respectful and logical. I hope she responds positively. My perspective is that responding keeps this going. She'll could continue to think she can say things like this to you. For me, nothing beats good old "ignore". You are an adult...and according to her religion, you have agency. Even if she feels an accountability/stewardship for you, she can keep it to herself. It's hard to have a discussion/fight alone.

Thanks. It was straight from my heart. My dad already responded and it was a nice response. He finished by saying my mom would respond later. They share an email account so I knew they would both get it. I am trying to be prepared for this to go either way. If it goes well and we can have adult discussions about our religious beliefs then great. If it goes badly then we can stop having these discussions and I can feel like I gave it a real chance.

It depends on the person. How confrontational they are and how much you interact with them outside the church. If they don't interact with you without the church, then there is no reason to engage with them. I would simply setup your e-mail to send anything from them to the trash automatically. Block them on Facebook, etc.

If you do have to interact with them on topics other than church, then you have to look at your situation and see what would work best. Maybe setup something to block messages that contain common trigger words or phrases.

Yes, definitely. I see my parents all the time and usually not directly related to church. They come to my kids baseball games and we have family get togethers. The family time has church stuff mixed in of course, as most are TBM, but the focus is just to enjoy each other's company. I don't want to cut these guys out of my life if I can avoid it, and they aren't too overbearing for the most part.

I purposely leave those things out because that is not what led me out of the church. For me it was seeing the church act like an MLM, watching people use faulty epistemology, then learning about confirmation bias. Let those stew for a couple years, then viola! A disaffected church member is ready to be taken out of the oven.

I only learned about the historical issues after coming to NOM and reddit. Sometimes that stuff comes up in discussions, but I try to stick to my issues when describing my reasons for leaving.

If our relationships can't handle open discussion then I will stop, but I think for both sides we need to wear each other out before assuming we can't be open about our religious feelings.

I left because I was never happy at church (even though I tried really hard to "fake it until you make it"), because I think the church is homophobic af, and because the drive for conformity and shaming when you don't conform don't jive with my personality at all. I was fully indoctrinated into thinking I was a broken person until one day I found the Mormon Stories podcast. That was only like a year ago. It blew my mind that there were so many other disaffected people out there like me. And I've always been a skeptic in so many areas, so it's surprising it took so long, but apparently I really took the "stay away from anti-Mormon literature" thing to heart. Probably because deep down I always knew it would persuade me and then I would have all kinds of issues with my family. And what do you know?

I digress. My point is that I left not for historical reasons but personal/contemporary ones, but I found out all the historical lies and whitewashing in the months after I left. And even though those weren't my original reasons, they are still among the biggest issues I have. The amount of guilt I felt over this organization that requires perfect accountability from me was extreme. And then I find out they've been lying to me about details large and small my entire life? The historical stuff may not be the reason I left, but it's the reason that I'm angry.

If the historical stuff bothers you, by all means, claim it as one of "your" reasons. Just because it wasn't in your initial list of reasons doesn't mean it's not valid.

Good points.

For me the historical stuff was eye opening, but it isn't why I disaffected. I don't think it would have caused me to disaffect without the current manipulation the church uses. And that is what makes me angry too, the way everything is setup to manipulate people into staying in the boat. Grrrr. The lying about history makes me way more angry than the history itself, but that's a modern attempt to manipulate. Although, if someone brings something up which is historically inaccurate I correct them; like the BoM witnesses or BoA or polygamy. They deserve the truth the church won't openly give them.

I'm glad you found Mormon Stories! I cried when I found it. I had been disaffected in my head for a couple years, but felt totally alone and didn't feel like I could share it with anyone. Then I saw an article about John Dehlin's church discipline and looked into Mormon Stories and, like you, found a thriving community of people like me!!! That led to NOM. I am filled with gratitude for that chain of events and the people who made it possible.

[wtfluff]

Have you looked into "Street Epistemology" at all?

Maybe you could start using some of those methods to turn the conversation to your family's beliefs, and try to get them talking about "why" they actually believe what the believe...

I just looked it up here. It shares some similarities with the commitment pattern they taught me at the MTC, at the beginning anyway. I will have to give it a try. I like that it focuses on the epistemology people use. I would feel like I was being manipulative if I over-use it though.

The commitment pattern??? [PUKE]

Street Epistemology has nothing to do with getting someone to "commit" to something. As I understand it, it's basically using the Socratic Method to try and get someone to actually think about WHY they believe something.

I guess leading questions could be manipulative, but I'm not so sure "WHY?" is a manipulative question. When I was a believer, I don't think I EVER asked myself WHY I believed something.