Brushes with "the other side"?

[Rob4Hope]

I havent been following the thread much. I just jumped to page 5. It got deep.

Get in there Emower. We need you on this one!....it has some deep stuff,...but we are hashing it out. At least I've been given food for thought, which is why i'm here.

[alas]

None of the NDEs that I mentioned were ever reported anywhere. The ones who experienced them are all kind of personal about them and very careful not to tell anyone who might mock them. I felt very honored that they were willing to tell me, which is kind of why I hesitate to share them even somewhere like here.

But one thing they all had in common was the idea that it kind of changed their life. And they were all really good people, the kind you say, I want to be like her when I grow up.

They were all also LDS, but admitted that it was kind of a place to serve others, and said that in some ways the doctrine doesn't fit. But they were not the kind to worry about it. It was like they didn't take life as seriously, but in other ways took it more seriously. None of them would have made good NOMs, because we are so serious about this stuff. We want *truth* and they said that the details don't matter so much. Most of all, it wasn't worth stressing or getting angry over. Which of course makes no sense to me.

[EternityIsNow]

Can you share some information about the concept of "time" in that place?

EIN...can you tell some of the specifics of your NDE please. Where were you at the time, what was happening in your body that triggered it, when did this happen, what was the "transition" experience for you....etc? Can you fill in the details--and if you already did that in the posts above, just say so and I will do my review. Again, I'm sorry if this is in the thread earlier. I try to keep up, but I read so much, I sometimes don't get to all of it in sequence.

I seem to be a person who has these experiences more often than most. And I have had a full range of altered state experiences including drug-induced hallucination, temporal lobe events (temporary partial complex epilepsy dx by neurologist) and lucid dreaming, and they just do not compare with NDE/OOBE experiences.

I wrote more details of my NDE a few posts back. Here is one more experience, this happened a few years before the NDE. I had a really unusual experience with time shifting, an OOBE experience when I was very sleep deprived. Apparently my consciousness did not want to go to sleep, and I separated from my body spontaneously (without intending to), but stayed in the bed, mostly to make certain all was well as I had not slept in several days. Suddenly time sped up around me, I could hear my breathing, it was about 100x faster than normal, like a machine-gun. I also felt the bed vibrate up and down now and then, that seemed surreal, but this was myself or my DW moving around as we slept. When DW changed positions in the bed it happened in what seemed like an instant, one second she was in one position, the next she was in another, it was a blink of time and she had moved, that was really unexpected and strange. After what seemed like about 5 minutes,or less, the sun rose and it was morning. My body had slept through the night while I had sat or laid along with it on the bed. Time around me seemed to have massively sped up, or I guess my time slowed down relative to earth time. As this was happening I thought maybe I was having a seizure, I could not figure out at first what was going on. But after it stopped, I realized that the experience could only logically be explained by a time rate difference while I was out of the body. This is the opposite of what many people report in NDEs, where only a few seconds pass on earth but they have experienced hours or even days of their own subjective time in another plane. I had experienced a few minutes with my own consciousness while hours passed on earth. So my conclusion is that our consciousness is non-local, it has to be to explain this experience, or at least consciousness can operate in non-local time. I don't think the theory of consciousness being an emergent property of some quantum effect in the brain could explain what happened to me. From my experience with this time-shifting OOBE, I believe our consciousness not only exists outside the local host body, but also outside spacetime as we know it.

I've never experienced going back in time, only speeding or slowing up going into the future. Although reportedly some NDEers see detailed 'movies' about the past, even ancient earth history, they don't ever go back into earth time as a conscous entity, at least not that I can find in the literature. But we do sometimes see bits and pieces of a possible future, I was shown a movie from the future in a past transition experience (past life), that memory came to me as a child but I had forgotten, until the memory returned after my NDE.

You asked also whether I received any new abilities from the NDE. I definitely did, but did not perceive that for years. My IQ did seem broader, I would not say I became smarter, but I became aware of far more elements of earth life, and I became much more resilient. Also, my ability to sense synchronicities improved a lot (read Karl Jung's book for an explanation, a classic must-read for any metaphysics student). But most of these abilities have served only to help me cope with a complicated life, they have not made me into a psychic or anything like that.

You also mentioned you would like to have these experiences, without the pain of some NDEs. I believe research has shown that people who study NDEs and internalize the philosophy of that experience can have a transformation that is very similar to what a person has after an NDE. So you may already be getting there. Also, have you looked into some of the links I posted earlier on how to have an OOBE? Does not work for everyone, but many people can train themselves to have these experiences. I seem to only be able to have them spontaneously, I've not been able to have an OOBE when I use the meditations, but maybe someday I'll figure out how... I appreciate you bringing up this topic on the new NOM forum, so these discussions are documented, was sad to loose so many good posts on NDEs and everything else when that went down.

[EternityIsNow]

None of the NDEs that I mentioned were ever reported anywhere. The ones who experienced them are all kind of personal about them and very careful not to tell anyone who might mock them. I felt very honored that they were willing to tell me, which is kind of why I hesitate to share them even somewhere like here.

But one thing they all had in common was the idea that it kind of changed their life. And they were all really good people, the kind you say, I want to be like her when I grow up.

They were all also LDS, but admitted that it was kind of a place to serve others, and said that in some ways the doctrine doesn't fit. But they were not the kind to worry about it. It was like they didn't take life as seriously, but in other ways took it more seriously. None of them would have made good NOMs, because we are so serious about this stuff. We want *truth* and they said that the details don't matter so much. Most of all, it wasn't worth stressing or getting angry over. Which of course makes no sense to me.

Too bad, those are really great accounts! I guess you shared them here anonymously, that is something.

Yea, maybe we are just too serious about this stuff, strange what happens when you realize that actually knowing truth might be useful. Turns out that believing things are true that are actually false can be unhealthy for some of us. Who knew?

[alas]

None of the NDEs that I mentioned were ever reported anywhere. The ones who experienced them are all kind of personal about them and very careful not to tell anyone who might mock them. I felt very honored that they were willing to tell me, which is kind of why I hesitate to share them even somewhere like here.

But one thing they all had in common was the idea that it kind of changed their life. And they were all really good people, the kind you say, I want to be like her when I grow up.

They were all also LDS, but admitted that it was kind of a place to serve others, and said that in some ways the doctrine doesn't fit. But they were not the kind to worry about it. It was like they didn't take life as seriously, but in other ways took it more seriously. None of them would have made good NOMs, because we are so serious about this stuff. We want *truth* and they said that the details don't matter so much. Most of all, it wasn't worth stressing or getting angry over. Which of course makes no sense to me.

Too bad, those are really great accounts! I guess you shared them here anonymously, that is something.

Yea, maybe we are just too serious about this stuff, strange what happens when you realize that actually knowing truth might be useful. Turns out that believing things are true that are actually false can be unhealthy for some of us. Who knew?

I think the difference is that they know a greater truth. We search for truth in a kind of frantic scared way. What if we are wrong about the church? What if we decide it is good for service to others, but then at the same time, it is hurting people, so can we support it? For them the fear has gone out of the search, and they just feel the love.

It is sort of like Harry Potter asking the dead Dumbledore if the visit at the train station is real, or all in his head. Dumbledore replies that just because it is all in his head does not mean it isn't real. Harry wants to know if he is really dead and that people he loves still exist. But Dumbledore's answer side steps the question and essentially says that what you learn by the experience is real, even if it is all in your own head.

that was not a very satisfying answer to Harry, because he had lost too many people he loved, and he wants to know that he will have something besides memories again sometime, that he will really be with these people. But even when we are alive and with people we love, all we have is the experience in our own heads.

One of my friends when I asked if she thought the experience was real, said that it doesn't really matter if the experience was her existing after she was really dead, or if the experience was the dying brain shutting down as the skeptics say. It changed her and that was what was important.

[Rob4Hope]

ALAS....one of the most profound things associated with NDE, especially those with OOBE are changed lives. Those who come close to death, perhaps even dying but not experiencing a NDE, and those who have NDEs...the continuation of their lives are quite different. Its one of the strongest indicators that a "psychic" change happened, whatever that may be.

OK...I want to throw something else out there. Lets talk about this DMT thing. People are saying this drug lets you leave your body, or somehow plugs you into other dimensions. I don't know anything really about it--and I am NOT planning on going on a drug binge to find out!--but I wanna know what others think if they have an experience or understanding of it.

I will be learning more about this as well as I can...

[EternityIsNow]

OK...I want to throw something else out there. Lets talk about this DMT thing. People are saying this drug lets you leave your body, or somehow plugs you into other dimensions. I don't know anything really about it--and I am NOT planning on going on a drug binge to find out!--but I wanna know what others think if they have an experience or understanding of it.

I will be learning more about this as well as I can...

Somewhat familiar with DMT, for medical reasons. Plants and animals produce a small amount of DMT. It is not some strange and foreign chemical. In rats, DMT is produced in the pineal gland. I don't believe there is proof yet that human pineal gland makes DMT, and since even plants make some DMT as byproducts of other processes, human DMT could have another biological origin. Some people believe that DMT is released in the human body during deep meditation. There's also evidence that it is involved in sleep and dreaming. So it makes sense that there could be a relationship between DMT, sleep, drug-induced hallucinations, and out of body states.

DMT is a tryptamine and can mimic activation of serotonin, very major activation levels. So that would make it extremely calming. DMT is found in a plant used in a drink in religious rituals in Central America. Ayahuasca. And DMT is known to relieve symptoms of some medical conditions including one that I have. A person I knew online once with my same medical problem went to Central America and tried Ayahuasca. He was cured for several hours. Interesting and complicated to explain how this worked. For some of the science and some interesting articles on research into health and psychedelics, see:

http://beckleyfoundation.org/

My guess is that DMT and related psychedelics alter brain function in a way that releases some of the connection between consciousness and the body, allowing consciousness to explore some of the other layers of the universe.

[moksha]

You asked also whether I received any new abilities from the NDE. I definitely did, but did not perceive that for years. My IQ did seem broader, I would not say I became smarter, but I became aware of far more elements of earth life, and I became much more resilient.

Wish that were true for everyone who experienced oxygen deprivation to their brains due to their cardiopulmonary system shutting down. Many are left with some deficit.

[EternityIsNow]

You asked also whether I received any new abilities from the NDE. I definitely did, but did not perceive that for years. My IQ did seem broader, I would not say I became smarter, but I became aware of far more elements of earth life, and I became much more resilient.

Wish that were true for everyone who experienced oxygen deprivation to their brains due to their cardiopulmonary system shutting down. Many are left with some deficit.

I've read brain damage starts at 3 minutes for humans. So short NDEs are healthier. Longer if you eat a lot of antarctic fish (up to 27 minutes for emperor).

[Rob4Hope]

I want to include a personal post here, and just be vulnerable a moment.

DAMN I WISH I were smarter and had more time for all of this. This topic fascinates me, but I confess I am limited by my own ability to understand, and the lack of time to do some of the research I wish I could.

I've got like 5 books back-logged I want to get into, but it takes like....<<drum roll>> TIME to get through those. I also have to read some of the material over and over to even understand what they are talking about, let alone be in any position to even judge the validity of what I am reading. The physics connection fascinates me!....and yet my skills are so low in this area that it takes everything I have to even comprehend.

Why is this coming up?... I have to add another book to the backlog--one on physics and consciousness.

One of the biggest things I learned during my graduate work is I don't know hardly NOTHING! When you start digging into academic literature, for example, those things aren't what you would call "page turners". In fact,...they cause what my associates and I dubbed the "MEGO". "My eyes glaze over!"

Sometimes you have to have a background in the material JUST to begin to understand it. And when it starts to get really technical--then it gets more difficult.

ARRRRRGGGGGGGG!!!!!

[Rob4Hope]

You asked also whether I received any new abilities from the NDE. I definitely did, but did not perceive that for years. My IQ did seem broader, I would not say I became smarter, but I became aware of far more elements of earth life, and I became much more resilient.

Wish that were true for everyone who experienced oxygen deprivation to their brains due to their cardiopulmonary system shutting down. Many are left with some deficit.

I've read brain damage starts at 3 minutes for humans. So short NDEs are healthier. Longer if you eat a lot of antarctic fish (up to 27 minutes for emperor).

There are accounts of people being dead (like no blood moving AT ALL) for long periods of time (as in waking up in the morgue) who have extreme NDE and OOBE events, and they end up with increased I/Q, etc.

This is one of the reason (among MANY) I think something way more profound is going on then some medical reason trying to explain why these types of anomalies happen.

[alas]

I am puzzeled by the connection between meditation, DMT, both being very calming ways of inducing OOBE, compared to trauma induced OOBE, being stress and anything but calming. So, why are OOBE produced by the two extremes of emotion?

For the first time in years I want to dig into my old psychology textbooks. But, hey, I sent them all ff to DI when we moved last year because I had not looked anything up in years.

[Rob4Hope]

I am puzzeled by the connection between meditation, DMT, both being very calming ways of inducing OOBE, compared to trauma induced OOBE, being stress and anything but calming. So, why are OOBE produced by the two extremes of emotion?

For the first time in years I want to dig into my old psychology textbooks. But, hey, I sent them all ff to DI when we moved last year because I had not looked anything up in years.

OK...do the meditation side of things. Astral Projection......

Is there anything to this, or is it a hokey way to trigger a weird hallucination that causes issues with those who claim OOBEs?

[EternityIsNow]

There are accounts of people being dead (like no blood moving AT ALL) for long periods of time (as in waking up in the morgue) who have extreme NDE and OOBE events, and they end up with increased I/Q, etc.

This is one of the reason (among MANY) I think something way more profound is going on then some medical reason trying to explain why these types of anomalies happen.

There is one possible medical explanation, although I still agree that something profound is going on on top of the medical explanation. And this goes back to the bio chemistry of DMT in the body. Apparently DMT can protect cells from damage when there are low oxygen levels. So hypothetically, during an NDE, if DMT is involved, there would be less damage from oxygen deprivation for a period of time. That might explain some of the cases. Also would explain why brain damage is avoided in most NDEs, in contrast with the unfortunate oxygen deprivation cases where DMT is not involved.

[EternityIsNow]

OK...do the meditation side of things. Astral Projection......

Is there anything to this, or is it a hokey way to trigger a weird hallucination that causes issues with those who claim OOBEs?

Triggering your own OOBE is nothing like a hallucination, and I've never heard of anyone having issues afterwards. The body continues breathing on its own, even if your consciousness is focused somewhere else.

If you have not looked yet, you really should check out the Robert Monroe Institute. Look at their publications and some of the authors who have conducted training programs for them. They promote their binaural beat system, called Hemisynch, I have some of their CDs, they are pretty good. Some people get out of body experience is just from listening to those meditations soundtracks.

For a religion that has published metaphysical scriptures and promotes visions and out of body experiences of its founder, I find it interesting that Mormonism completely ignores the modern approaches to the same phenomenon. Maybe they don't want the members to discover that these phenomenon are universal, work for any human, and might have an alternative rational explanation that is less than divine . Better to keep people believing it was a one time magical event.

[Rob4Hope]

OK...do the meditation side of things. Astral Projection......

Is there anything to this, or is it a hokey way to trigger a weird hallucination that causes issues with those who claim OOBEs?

Triggering your own OOBE is nothing like a hallucination, and I've never heard of anyone having issues afterwards. The body continues breathing on its own, even if your consciousness is focused somewhere else.

If you have not looked yet, you really should check out the Robert Monroe Institute. Look at their publications and some of the authors who have conducted training programs for them. They promote their binaural beat system, called Hemisynch, I have some of their CDs, they are pretty good. Some people get out of body experience is just from listening to those meditations soundtracks.

For a religion that has published metaphysical scriptures and promotes visions and out of body experiences of its founder, I find it interesting that Mormonism completely ignores the modern approaches to the same phenomenon. Maybe they don't want the members to discover that these phenomenon are universal, work for any human, and might have an alternative rational explanation that is less than divine . Better to keep people believing it was a one time magical event.

Eban Alexander talks about this Hemisynch thing. OK...I will see what they got.

I'm buried with books and things to read.

In a later post on this thread,...it might be time (probably late january?) to open it up to some of the seance topic. Bill Real has a person on his podcast site that was beginning to discuss this. That whole thing was VERY popular in the earlier 1900s, wasn't it?

There are some freaky things people report. I might have reported one above in a prior post.

[EternityIsNow]

I am puzzeled by the connection between meditation, DMT, both being very calming ways of inducing OOBE, compared to trauma induced OOBE, being stress and anything but calming. So, why are OOBE produced by the two extremes of emotion?

Good question.

I've had OOBEs in both situations. And I know people who had them spontaneously during random daily activities. My guess is than an OOBE is possible at any time. But more likely under conditions where the brain is either highly sedated or turned off completely. Or perhaps wishes it were turned off. There seem to be quite a few different potential triggers.

I assume you were thinking about some of your patients who have jumped out of the body during abuse trauma. That reminds me a little bit of people who faint under stress. I believe that would be psychogenic blackout. Perhaps that can trigger The right brain chemistry for an OOBE for some people.

[moksha]

This is one of the reasons (among MANY) I think something way more profound is going on then some medical reason trying to explain why these types of anomalies happen.

Perhaps we could refer to this phenomena as physiological encounters of the third kind.

[Rob4Hope]

I've read enough of this latest book to say they have something. The book talks about "veridical NDEs" -- those that have confirming 3rd party components. The examples are clear enough, consistent enough, AND COMMON ENOUGH, that you can't just walk away from them saying "its a fluke".

I like this topic. I like that I am finding something that supports the idea of consciousness being able to exist outside the body. Some of these doctors (and those are the hard ones to discount, especially when they have objective measurements backing them up) have coined the word "soul" as they've described what their patients encountered. Its quite fascinating.

OK....lets open it up to the seance side of things. This is the "creepy" side of the other side dilima. Anyone ever have a brush with the "darker side" out there? (that is part of the other side as well I suppose)....

[Rob4Hope]

This one is pretty good:

Paramedic Frank apologized, without wondering how John could have known that the CPR had been continued for another 10 minutes. But John clarified anyway: I was there  .  .  . you see  .  .  . I saw the whole thing  .  .  . and I remember Jack saying that he wanted to “call it” and you saying that your probationer needed extra work on his CPR anyway, so you may as well keep going. Frank was naturally shocked to hear that his feeling at the time that the victim had been out of body had been correct and that the victim had “heard” the senior paramedic talking was also correct. Frank was fascinated. He asked John whether the latter remembered anything else. Well, I remember that the other paramedic suggested that there would be just as much likelihood of resuscitating the manequien [sic] back at the station as resuscitating me  .  .  . and it was about then that I realised that this was serious and that if I wanted to live  .  .  . I was going to have to get back in that body  .  .  . and the next thing I know  .  .  . I’m in hospital a few days later. Frank was so impressed with this statement from a man who had been in asystole that he made sure to recount the case to the other paramedics who had been at the scene that day— and to share the account on his website.

Rivas, Titus; Dirven,Anny; Smit,Rudolf. The Self Does Not Die: Verified Paranormal Phenomena from Near-Death Experiences (p. 79). International Association for Near-Death Studies. Kindle Edition.

Lots of the NDEs are talking about needing to get back into their "body". They are outside it, can see it and know what it is. This disengaging of the physical from consciousness is part of the crux of the matter.