Trying to Get a New Monson Obituary Written by NYT

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Jeffret
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Re: Trying to Get a New Monson Obituary Written by NYT

Post by Jeffret » Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:53 am

The petition mentions two people in comparison to what Nathan Cunningham feels is a disrespectful article on Monson, Fidel Castro and the pope.

Here is Castro's obituary: Fidel Castro, Cuban Revolutionary Who Defied U.S., Dies at 90. In Castro's article it states,
He wielded power like a tyrant, controlling every aspect of the island’s existence. ... He personally sent countless men to prison.

But it was more than repression and fear that kept him and his totalitarian government in power for so long. He had both admirers and detractors in Cuba and around the world. Some saw him as a ruthless despot who trampled rights and freedoms; many others hailed him as the crowds did that first night, as a revolutionary hero for the ages.
...
His legacy in Cuba and elsewhere has been a mixed record of social progress and abject poverty, of racial equality and political persecution, of medical advances and a degree of misery comparable to the conditions that existed in Cuba when he entered Havana as a victorious guerrilla commander in 1959.
It's a long article with lots of information and comments about Castro, some of it complimentary and some of it critical. I would say that some of the characterization of Castro is much worse, much more critical and "disrespectful" than Monson's. It's clear that Castro accomplished a number of things, for good or bad, and left behind a legacy.

And here's the one for the last pope to have died: Catholic Leader's Death Comes After Long and Public Illness. It states,
John Paul II's detractors were often passionate as his supporters, criticizing him for what they said was tradition-bound papacy in need of a bolder connection with modern life if the church wanted to bring back to the faith people in more secular Western nations.
...
"A pope of many, great gifts, and of many bad decisions."

Among liberal Catholics, he was criticized for his strong opposition to abortion, homosexuality and contraception, as well as the ordination of women and married men.
There are many more Catholics in the world than Mormons. John Paul II was much more known than Monson. In some ways, John Paul II's obituary is more respectful than Monson's though there are definitely criticisms. It does point out some of John Paul II's accomplishments. I suspect that when Ratzinger / Pope Benedict XVI passes, the Times obituary will have significantly more criticism than for his predecessor.

I'm beginning to think that what people object to in Monson's obituary are not so much the criticisms and problems. They're more concerned about the lack of accomplishments. But, they can't really point to any either. What the obituary makes fairly clear is that Monson didn't really accomplish much. Neither the good things nor the bad can be directly traced to his hand. Unlike John Paul II, he didn't become known for reaching out to others. Even within the faithful he demonstrated no core teachings or concerns. His only notable accomplishment, at least within his tenure and for some decades leading up to it, was outliving his predecessor. For a man who is supposed to be god's living mouthpiece, revealing the will of god, the lack of vision and impact feels kind of harsh, but that's due to Monson's and not The Times's actions.
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And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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MerrieMiss
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Re: Trying to Get a New Monson Obituary Written by NYT

Post by MerrieMiss » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:08 am

Jeffret wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:10 pm
It's the natural reaction.
wtfluff wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:21 pm
The very best thing to do with Trimble is to never, under any circumstances whatsoever visit his site.
MoPag wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:40 am
And Greg Trimble's site-OMG! Is he even for-real!

Ha ha. Yeah, I knew better. I sometimes wonder how TBM a BIL is. BIL posted something like, give the NYT a break and then posted Trimble's site. I thought maybe, just maybe, Greg Trimble got something right. Perhaps I'm more of an optimist than I thought.

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MoPag
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Re: Trying to Get a New Monson Obituary Written by NYT

Post by MoPag » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:49 am

I think if they really wanted to be nasty to TSM, they would have pointed out the fact that he refused to even meet with Ordain Women. The obit makes it sound like he acknowledged them in some way before denying their requests.

Or they could have noted the increase of LDS LGBT suicides after the POX policy came out.
...walked eye-deep in hell
believing in old men’s lies...--Ezra Pound

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BlackMormon
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Re: Trying to Get a New Monson Obituary Written by NYT

Post by BlackMormon » Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:11 pm

Hello!

My 2 cents worth:

1. We always referred to Joseph Smith, as Prophet Joseph Smith.
2. Prophet Brigham Young

Those are the two I remember. I am not quite sure when we began referring to Prophets of the LDS church as President so-and-so and why. During my last TR interview I remember being asked: "Do you support Thomas S. Monson as Prophet, Seer and Revelator? I don't recall that changing to Thomas S. Monson as President, Seer and Revelator.

In my personal opinion, things have become too business-like. I would much rather he be called Prophet Thomas S. Monson, or Prophet Monson assuming that is what he is or was. Unless people are subconsciously fearful of calling him Prophet Monson because then it'd be implied that he needs to prophesy and I don't remember any of his prophecies, do you?

As for the NYT article, I see nothing wrong with it. They expressed their point of view and they owe us nothing. They weren't disrespectful. They didn't lie, did they?

Finally, I fear that many members have become borderline idolaters. I think the NYT response was intelligent, coherent and appropriate. No need for petitions. That only makes us look like loonies.

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Just This Guy
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Re: Trying to Get a New Monson Obituary Written by NYT

Post by Just This Guy » Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:57 pm

The obituary Editor for the NYT published a statement regarding the way TSM's obit was written

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/08/read ... tuary.html

Basically, they said that that is how they write them, and they don't plan on making any changes.
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

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Re: Trying to Get a New Monson Obituary Written by NYT

Post by Corsair » Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:04 pm

BlackMormon wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:11 pm
As for the NYT article, I see nothing wrong with it. They expressed their point of view and they owe us nothing. They weren't disrespectful. They didn't lie, did they?

Finally, I fear that many members have become borderline idolaters. I think the NYT response was intelligent, coherent and appropriate. No need for petitions. That only makes us look like loonies.
Yes, a lot of Mormons have very thin skin. They usually don't comprehend how irrelevant the LDS church actually is outside of Utah, Idaho, and Arizona. Almost no one else on the planet really cares about who leads us.

Consider your own opinions of a guy like Don Alden Adams. Haven't you heard of him? He was an important religious leader to many people! As a result of your indifference, you never heard of him nor have any interest in his opinions or ideas. Don Alden Adams lead the Jehovah's Witnesses up until 2014 and I doubt that anyone outside of their faith cared at all. I had to Google the leader of their church to find his name. That's how most non-Mormons felt about Thomas Monson.

The NYT published the kind of things about Thomas Monson that might have made news. If a believing Mormon think it's flattering, then they might consider why they would look upon anything that the Jehovah's Witness, or any other church, might do. As an outsider the most common reaction is indifference.

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Re: Trying to Get a New Monson Obituary Written by NYT

Post by moksha » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:36 pm

BlackMormon wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:11 pm
During my last TR interview I remember being asked: "Do you support Thomas S. Monson as Prophet, Seer and Revelator? I don't recall that changing to Thomas S. Monson as President, Seer and Revelator.
Would it seem more technically correct if we were to vow our support for Russell M. Nelson, Sole Proprietor of the Corporation of the First Presidency?
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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2bizE
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Re: Trying to Get a New Monson Obituary Written by NYT

Post by 2bizE » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:32 am

Any guesses on how Oaks’ obituary will read?
~2bizE

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wtfluff
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Re: Trying to Get a New Monson Obituary Written by NYT

Post by wtfluff » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:36 am

2bizE wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:32 am
Any guesses on how Oaks’ obituary will read?
Oh boy!

I might actually take the time to read the entire thing when Oaks kicks it. If I'm not celebrating too hard.

Sorry that was harsh. (Just like Oaks.)

Maybe you can tell, I detest that guy...
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

IDKSAF -RubinHighlander

You can surrender without a prayer...

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Re: Trying to Get a New Monson Obituary Written by NYT

Post by Palerider » Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:59 am

Corsair wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:04 pm
BlackMormon wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:11 pm
As for the NYT article, I see nothing wrong with it. They expressed their point of view and they owe us nothing. They weren't disrespectful. They didn't lie, did they?

Finally, I fear that many members have become borderline idolaters. I think the NYT response was intelligent, coherent and appropriate. No need for petitions. That only makes us look like loonies.
Yes, a lot of Mormons have very thin skin. They usually don't comprehend how irrelevant the LDS church actually is outside of Utah, Idaho, and Arizona. Almost no one else on the planet really cares about who leads us.

Consider your own opinions of a guy like Don Alden Adams. Haven't you heard of him? He was an important religious leader to many people! As a result of your indifference, you never heard of him nor have any interest in his opinions or ideas. Don Alden Adams lead the Jehovah's Witnesses up until 2014 and I doubt that anyone outside of their faith cared at all. I had to Google the leader of their church to find his name. That's how most non-Mormons felt about Thomas Monson.

The NYT published the kind of things about Thomas Monson that might have made news. If a believing Mormon think it's flattering, then they might consider why they would look upon anything that the Jehovah's Witness, or any other church, might do. As an outsider the most common reaction is indifference.

The church has suffered from this "medium sized fish in an extremely small pond" syndrome for a long time. They're like sherrifs in small southern counties who run things their own way in spite of the larger federal government and country that surrounds them. You really don't want to go there....
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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Corsair
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Re: Trying to Get a New Monson Obituary Written by NYT

Post by Corsair » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:13 am

Palerider wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:59 am
The church has suffered from this "medium sized fish in an extremely small pond" syndrome for a long time. They're like sherrifs in small southern counties who run things their own way in spite of the larger federal government and country that surrounds them. You really don't want to go there....
I have a lot of friends and relatives who live in that small, southern town. I don't want to anger the natives or their thin-skinned sheriff, but I can't easily leave without abandoning friends and relatives. So I am largely indifferent to the passing of their latest prophet.

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moksha
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Re: Trying to Get a New Monson Obituary Written by NYT

Post by moksha » Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:35 am

For comparison, here is the New York Times obituary of Westboro Church leader Fred Phelps.

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/21/us/f ... t-84.html?
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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moksha
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Re: Trying to Get a New Monson Obituary Written by NYT

Post by moksha » Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:52 am

Palerider wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:59 am
The church has suffered from this "medium sized fish in an extremely small pond" syndrome for a long time.
If the International Space Station had a more powerful righteousness scanner they could easily see the area below from space.

Image
Best viewed as a composite in the ultraviolet and infrared spectrums. Even better with 3D goggles if you have any. You would observe that the LDS Hegemony extends down into the pinks.
Last edited by moksha on Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Palerider
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Re: Trying to Get a New Monson Obituary Written by NYT

Post by Palerider » Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:58 pm

moksha wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:52 am
Palerider wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:59 am
The church has suffered from this "medium sized fish in an extremely small pond" syndrome for a long time.
If the International Space Station had a more powerful righteousness scanner they could easily see the area below from space.

Image
Best viewed as a composite in the ultraviolet and infrared spectrums. Even better with 3D goggles if you have any. You would observe that the LDS Hegemony extends down into the pinks.










































'pinks
Even this is somewhat deceptive in that it creates the feeling of land mass as opposed to population. The further into the pink you get the less influence is exercised.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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mooseman
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Re: Trying to Get a New Monson Obituary Written by NYT

Post by mooseman » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:04 pm

Palerider wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:58 pm
moksha wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:52 am
Palerider wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:59 am
The church has suffered from this "medium sized fish in an extremely small pond" syndrome for a long time.
If the International Space Station had a more powerful righteousness scanner they could easily see the area below from space.

Image
Best viewed as a composite in the ultraviolet and infrared spectrums. Even better with 3D goggles if you have any. You would observe that the LDS Hegemony extends down into the pinks.










































'pinks
Even this is somewhat deceptive in that it creates the feeling of land mass as opposed to population. The further into the pink you get the less influence is exercised.
Look at the map legend. Pink means 1%. So all that pink means 1 out 100 people or less ever cared, and even less currently do
It's frustrating to see the last resort in a discussion of facts be: I disregard those facts because of my faith. Why even talk about facts if the last resort is to put faith above all facts that are contrary to your faith?

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Palerider
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Re: Trying to Get a New Monson Obituary Written by NYT

Post by Palerider » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:09 pm

Right mooseman. I think that's what I'm sayin'. :)
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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MoPag
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Re: Trying to Get a New Monson Obituary Written by NYT

Post by MoPag » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:19 pm

Hi and welcome to NOM! :)
BlackMormon wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:11 pm

Finally, I fear that many members have become borderline idolaters. I think the NYT response was intelligent, coherent and appropriate. No need for petitions. That only makes us look like loonies.
Yes! I think members frequently cross the line into idolatry where the brethren are concerned. My FB feed was so full of TBMs losing their minds over this obit. You would have though TSM was their god. It's sad and scary.
...walked eye-deep in hell
believing in old men’s lies...--Ezra Pound

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Phil Lurkerman
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Re: Trying to Get a New Monson Obituary Written by NYT

Post by Phil Lurkerman » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:44 pm

Mormorrisey wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:51 am
LucyHoneychurch wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:13 pm
In comparison to the other "obits" it runs on notable deaths, I found the tone of Monson's deeply disrespectful.
I do get this, and even why Sis M. thinks so, that they did in fact focus on the negative rather than the positive the man did in his life. I really do. But think of it this way; we only know of Monson's service to widows, the one, from his conference talks, which I'm absolutely sure the obit editor of the NYT didn't even bother to listen to or read. If you didn't have that as part of your research base, you would focus on the things that happened during the time he was the head honcho, and that was not a particularly golden moment for Mormonism in general. So that is what a secular obituary, with an agenda I'm sure of badmouthing a very conservative religion, will do. I get it.

But by the same token, I think Mormons in general are so used to hearing one side of the story, one narrative of smiling rainbows and stars of gold, that we forget that not everybody fawns over the leaders as the rank and file do. And when that's exposed, it's not particularly welcome. If the NYT had lied, or stretched the truth, I would understand the outrage. But it WAS just straight reporting. Mormons just don't like it.
I can see both perspectives on this one. My sense is that those who find the tone disrespectful are reacting to the definitely secular point of view the writer projects.

For myself, I don't find the obit truly disrespectful - but it does come across as dismissive of believers and religion in general. That's always going to ruffle the feathers of righteous indignation.

Fortunately, I no longer care that much.
I was once a cafeteria Mormon on a hunger strike. Have since found a buffet elsewhere.

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moksha
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Re: Trying to Get a New Monson Obituary Written by NYT

Post by moksha » Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:14 pm

I wonder if instead of a new obituary, they could settle for President Boyd K. Packer's recommendation that instead of offering any tribute to the deceased they should make it into a missionary chance to spread the gospel. Maybe they could offer the New York Times readers a chance to learn more about the LDS Church. I am sure that if such an admonition was given to the rank and file, complainers could accept that same admonition for the funeral services of their leaders.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVJgmp2Tc2s
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Mormorrisey
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Re: Trying to Get a New Monson Obituary Written by NYT

Post by Mormorrisey » Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:06 am

Phil Lurkerman wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:44 pm
I can see both perspectives on this one. My sense is that those who find the tone disrespectful are reacting to the definitely secular point of view the writer projects.

For myself, I don't find the obit truly disrespectful - but it does come across as dismissive of believers and religion in general. That's always going to ruffle the feathers of righteous indignation.

Fortunately, I no longer care that much.
I think you're correct on this, and I would go so far as to add even who is speaking about some of the issues that plagued the church during Pres. Monson's tenure. For example, I came across this little gem from David Holland, the scholar son of Jeffrey R. In his interview about Monson, even he goes into some of the controversies:

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/ ... sses-away/

So what I take from this, if you're an apostle's son, you can get away with what the devil-inspired NYT did not. I'm pretty sure that Nathan won't get up a petition to shut Holland Jr. from speaking, now will he?
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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