"If you read the BoM, your babies will cry less"

Discussions about negotiating relationships between faithful LDS believers and the apostates who love them. This applies in particular to mixed-faith marriages, but relations with children, parents, siblings, friends, and ward members is very welcome.
Post Reply
TheRoadSouth
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:51 pm

"If you read the BoM, your babies will cry less"

Post by TheRoadSouth » Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:25 am

One of the sister missionaries spoke in SM last week, and was gushing about how the BoM will change your life. At one point, she emphatically promised, "If you read every single day, I promise you that your life will get better. Everything will get better, even your babies will cry less!" I physically got sick to my stomach that this Official Representative of Jesus Christ is preaching patently and provably false doctrine from the pulpit. Problem is, these kinds of statements happen all the time and nobody will ever correct them. In fact, I heard many people praising her for her talk. Why? Because our leaders, all of them, preach the Gospel of blessings by obedience, and that God loves us and will help us more than his other children because we are more obedient and have the Fullness of the Gospel. And I'm all for obedience, in the correct spirit! Just not the guilt-ridden version we are handed.

So, I brought it up to my TBM DW, and she said she cringed too when that was said. Progress! My wife is amazing, and is softly starting to look into subjects like the CES Letter (but without reading it exactly), because the evidence I have been presenting to her (in a VERY loving, "understanding of both sides" spirit) is not just convincing, it rings true. TBM's sometimes think that things like the CES Letter can single-handedly destroy someone's testimony. But, the truth is that so many members already have a shelf that's bending and almost ready to break, and something like that letter can easily be the thing that confirms what they were already feeling. IMHO, very few members "fall away" due to a single event, although I'm sure it happens. Am I wrong on that?

When I read the CES Letter, I spent the entire time saying "I knew it!" because it was a very real confirmation that I wasn't going crazy and the church is really and truly not what it claims it is. Almost 100% of the information in it was new to me. I was always afraid to look into it because I think part of me (and many members) is that they are afraid they will find something disturbing but true. And although it hurts me to have to do it, I do hope that my wife's shelf eventually collapses and we can see more eye-to-eye about what the church is really about and make better decisions for our family.

TheRoadSouth
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:51 pm

Re: "If you read the BoM, your babies will cry less"

Post by TheRoadSouth » Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:38 am

Also, I don't want to give the impression that my wife is ready to crack. She actually said the other day that she wanted to punch me in the face for all this. And, I got Tad Callister's apologetic BoM conference talk in my inbox yesterday.

User avatar
jfro18
Posts: 2064
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:41 pm

Re: "If you read the BoM, your babies will cry less"

Post by jfro18 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:59 am

I'm where you are now, basically - I had not heard 99% of what was in the CES letter, but because I have become so detached from the chuch over the years it was easy for me to go "HOW IS THIS EVEN POSSIBLE AND WHY DID NO ONE EVER TEACH US THIS?!?"

My wife knows all of the issues I have and will agree with me on superficial things (that members often give faith promoting stories that are ridiculous or that the church has a lot of embarrassing parts of its past), but that said... whenever I try to get any deeper into it, she retrenches into the 'BoM gives me a feeling that I need' mentality which is impossible to discuss. I have brought up some issues of how JS (or JS + help) wrote it any why, but then she falls back into FAIR apologist talk without even reading what I've seen.

I know she has a shelf and I know that at least some of what I have told her is in her mind... but I also know that she is (so far) only willing to read LDS sites about it. So then I wonder if that shelf will just be ignored after a short period, or if she will ever talk with me about it or look elsewhere.

It's sad because my original intention wasn't to destroy her testimony - we ignored church stuff for a long time to make it work. But after reading the CES Letter I kept going - and the CES Letter does a great job but missing some amazingly important other problems in the church history. So now I'm at a point where I want the church to just collapse and while she is free to believe what she wants, I do hope that some day she will at least talk with me about the specifics because she deserves to know as every member does.

Maybe it will end up where her testimony is stronger because she stared those doubts down and came out OK, but I don't know how *anyone* can read all these things and still believe Joseph Smith was anything but a con man. And don't even get me started on Brigham Young. :x

TheRoadSouth
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:51 pm

Re: "If you read the BoM, your babies will cry less"

Post by TheRoadSouth » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:34 am

Yes, it does seem like we in the same boat. Thanks for sharing. In one of our discussions, DW mentioned that "she didn't care" about the issues. Of course, most of us in this forum used to feel that way to some degree at some point, so can empathize with that position. We know the pain that comes with "caring" about the issues. Anyway, I mentioned that I started asking not "Do I care?", but "Should I care?" about these issues. Based on previous experiences that caused me to question what I was learning, I decided that I should care. Why in the world would I want to base MY ENTIRE LIFE on a church but not know everything there is to know about it. I just want the truth based on the best information we have available.

At this point I would consider myself an idiot if I ever went back to the TBM mindset. But, we have a ward talent show this weekend, and I'm excited to go and watch. Father/Son campout (I can't bear to call it "Priesthood Commemoration Campout" anymore) is in a few weeks, and I'm SUPER excited to go with my boys! I want to keep my sense of community because Mormons are good people and it's in my blood, and I love them and all we do together. But, it's becoming more and more that I like the activities more than church itself.

User avatar
jfro18
Posts: 2064
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:41 pm

Re: "If you read the BoM, your babies will cry less"

Post by jfro18 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:51 am

Yeah, and that's another thing. I have a hard time getting across that I don't hate the members of the church, but I sure do loathe the church as it was founded. I readily admit that I don't know what the motivations of the Q15 are these days... whether they know it's a lie and continue it or if they believe they feel the spirit and are doing what they want to do. Who knows...

But to your point - saying you don't care about the historical issues is a terrible mindset, and I have to believe my wife said that more to shut me down than because she believes it. If that's the case, why even bother listening to General Conference if you don't actually care about anything the leaders of the church tell you to do? If nothing matters beyond the book of mormon, why even bother listening to leaders now?

That's the hardest part for me - I've known her for 20 years and I know that's not who she is, but she then tells me that the church is what she is... so I can't figure out how to break through that. It's likely I never will, but I figure I have to try because we both know this is not a good path to be on right now.

User avatar
oliver_denom
Posts: 464
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2016 4:09 pm

Re: "If you read the BoM, your babies will cry less"

Post by oliver_denom » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:02 am

TheRoadSouth wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:25 am
One of the sister missionaries spoke in SM last week, and was gushing about how the BoM will change your life. At one point, she emphatically promised, "If you read every single day, I promise you that your life will get better. Everything will get better, even your babies will cry less!"
It wasn't until I learned psychologically that things which are familiar will "seem" more true and common sense than things which are new, that I realized the true utility of getting everyone to read scriptures daily.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_truth_effect

The church excels at this sort of illusion. One could argue that this one psychological trip is their entire bread and butter.

That aside, maybe the sister was correct. 2 Nephi certainly puts me to sleep, so why not a baby?
“You want to know something? We are still in the Dark Ages. The Dark Ages--they haven't ended yet.” - Vonnegut

L'enfer, c'est les autres - JP

User avatar
MerrieMiss
Posts: 580
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 9:03 pm

Re: "If you read the BoM, your babies will cry less"

Post by MerrieMiss » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:51 am

TheRoadSouth wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:25 am
One of the sister missionaries spoke in SM last week, and was gushing about how the BoM will change your life. At one point, she emphatically promised, "If you read every single day, I promise you that your life will get better. Everything will get better, even your babies will cry less!"
I point out things like this to my husband all the time, and he agrees it's ridiculous. But his response is always something like, "It's just the GD teacher. It's just that one lady who always has something to say. He's just an old man. It's just the missionaries - I've been a missionary, they don't know anything." He can't see that it's systemic. That the church allows and encourages this kind of thing. That church approved sources/doctrine say things just as stupid. So round and round we go. No matter what anyone tells you, every mormon is a cafeteria mormon.

TheRoadSouth
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:51 pm

Re: "If you read the BoM, your babies will cry less"

Post by TheRoadSouth » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:44 am

MerrieMiss wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:51 am
No matter what anyone tells you, every mormon is a cafeteria mormon.
Yep. But, only people like us get the Official Label. And, while we teach that we must live by faith, unfortunately in the church "faith" means "I know". If you don't "know", well, that could be a problem.

User avatar
Corsair
Posts: 3080
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 9:58 am
Location: Phoenix

Re: "If you read the BoM, your babies will cry less"

Post by Corsair » Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:23 am

TheRoadSouth wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:25 am
"If you read every single day, I promise you that your life will get better. Everything will get better, even your babies will cry less!"
Part of the reason that this is a rage inducing statement is that this bright eyed sister missionary will never be called to account for it. Try saying this statement as your main point during a Mother's Day talk next month. Mothers with teething babies just might assault you in sleep deprived frustration.

Frankly, if this strategy actually worked, then this would be one of the most welcome material benefits of this book of scripture. Am I being unfair for taking this claim seriously? Should we just let this pass as youthful exuberance from this young sister missionary? If I let this pass, can I consider the claims of material blessings from other LDS commandments? These realizations are deeply frustrating when you have spent your life supporting the LDS point of view without serious questions.

TheRoadSouth
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:51 pm

Re: "If you read the BoM, your babies will cry less"

Post by TheRoadSouth » Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:57 am

Corsair wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:23 am

Should we just let this pass as youthful exuberance from this young sister missionary?
Unfortunately, that is exactly what happens: she gets a pass because we all know that we hear this kind of stuff every week and I'm sure each of those types of statements end up on somebody's shelf, and the rest just pass it off. I'd really just love to go up there and say "More obedience does not bring more blessings. Paying tithing on gross does not bring more blessings than paying on net or even less. Goodness brings blessings. Making smart decisions each day brings blessings. Hard work associated with a strong game plan brings blessings. Your dishwasher will still break right when you're near a mental breakdown, then your car will. They are not tests of your endurance seeing if you will remain faithful through them. They are life, and God and the good people around you are the resources you have to help you deal with them. Reading more, praying more, and going to church will not reduce the number of issues life throws at you, but nobody should ever feel like they are alone in their individual battles. Our job, collectively, is to be there for each other to help each other fight those battles." Something like that.

Just kidding, follow the prophet.

User avatar
Corsair
Posts: 3080
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 9:58 am
Location: Phoenix

Re: "If you read the BoM, your babies will cry less"

Post by Corsair » Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:28 pm

TheRoadSouth wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:57 am
Unfortunately, that is exactly what happens: she gets a pass because we all know that we hear this kind of stuff every week and I'm sure each of those types of statements end up on somebody's shelf, and the rest just pass it off. I'd really just love to go up there and say "More obedience does not bring more blessings. Paying tithing on gross does not bring more blessings than paying on net or even less. Goodness brings blessings. Making smart decisions each day brings blessings. Hard work associated with a strong game plan brings blessings. Your dishwasher will still break right when you're near a mental breakdown, then your car will. They are not tests of your endurance seeing if you will remain faithful through them. They are life, and God and the good people around you are the resources you have to help you deal with them. Reading more, praying more, and going to church will not reduce the number of issues life throws at you, but nobody should ever feel like they are alone in their individual battles. Our job, collectively, is to be there for each other to help each other fight those battles." Something like that.

Just kidding, follow the prophet.
I was feeling the spirit and then you had to mention following the prophet. Still, I think I would enjoy the experience of hearing or presenting this idea in priesthood quorum.

User avatar
whatififly
Posts: 36
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:41 pm

Re: "If you read the BoM, your babies will cry less"

Post by whatififly » Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:09 pm

That makes me cringe too. I have a friend who went on an overseas mission. In his homecoming talk he related the story of a couple he encountered on his mission who were in an abusive relationship. He knew the guy was violent to his wife and promised them that if they read the book of Mormon the problems in their relationship would be resolved. Even as a TBM that made me furious. I had been in an abusive relationship at one time and knew for a fact that he was giving dangerous advice.

Like the sister missionary, he was praised for saying it. In fact, he was asked to speak at our stake conference after that and told the same story again. It made me sick.
“There is freedom waiting for you, on the breezes of the sky, and you ask "What if I fall?" Oh but my darling, what if you fly?” ― Erin Hanson

Proud Doubter of Dubious Doctrines

User avatar
wtfluff
Posts: 3630
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:20 pm
Location: Worshiping Gravity / Pulling Taffy

Re: "If you read the BoM, your babies will cry less"

Post by wtfluff » Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:16 pm

oliver_denom wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:02 am
That aside, maybe the sister was correct. 2 Nephi certainly puts me to sleep, so why not a baby?
Well, there you go: Read the book of mormon out loud to your babies, and it will put them to sleep; Hence, less crying. :|
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

IDKSAF -RubinHighlander

You can surrender without a prayer...

User avatar
Mormorrisey
Posts: 1403
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 6:54 pm

Re: "If you read the BoM, your babies will cry less"

Post by Mormorrisey » Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:23 pm

MerrieMiss wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:51 am
TheRoadSouth wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:25 am
One of the sister missionaries spoke in SM last week, and was gushing about how the BoM will change your life. At one point, she emphatically promised, "If you read every single day, I promise you that your life will get better. Everything will get better, even your babies will cry less!"
I point out things like this to my husband all the time, and he agrees it's ridiculous. But his response is always something like, "It's just the GD teacher. It's just that one lady who always has something to say. He's just an old man. It's just the missionaries - I've been a missionary, they don't know anything." He can't see that it's systemic. That the church allows and encourages this kind of thing. That church approved sources/doctrine say things just as stupid. So round and round we go. No matter what anyone tells you, every mormon is a cafeteria mormon.
It took me years to find out that this kind of thinking does come straight from the top. And this entire thread is a great example, why this young sister believed that the BOM can cure crying babies.

So for years, I'm wondering how some Mormons can believe that drinking xango or noni can cure cancer, or that essential oils can fix their anxiety or depression. Like, where does this naivete even come from? Well, take a look at this little beauty from Richard G Scott, from the October 2011 Conference, which was just a mere 7 years ago, on "The Power of Scripture."

"Scriptures can calm an agitated soul, giving peace, hope, and a restoration of confidence in one’s ability to overcome the challenges of life. They have potent power to heal emotional challenges when there is faith in the Savior. They can accelerate physical healing."

So, if an apostle believes that reading the BOM is a good as seeing a doctor for physical maladies, or cure depression, why WOULDN'T a young sister missionary believe that it would stop babies from crying? All this nonsense starts from the top, and then they'll say things like "I don't think we teach/emphasize that." Once again, the answer is if the BOM doesn't stop your baby from crying, or if it doesn't cure your cancer, there's something wrong with YOU, you inadequate piece of crap. Quite a racket they have going.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

User avatar
Just This Guy
Posts: 1514
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:30 pm
Location: Almost Heaven

Re: "If you read the BoM, your babies will cry less"

Post by Just This Guy » Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:28 pm

I will say that this is not a condition unique to Mormonism. This mentality is pretty common throughout Christianity. I commonly will see various bible verses thrown out as the cure to all sorts of life's conditions. Everything from being broke, to depression, there is a bible verse to help you.

My DW dealt with postpartum depression (PPD) with each of our kids. It was pretty bad with our first child until she figured out what was going on and got help. A sister missionary making that sort of dumb remark is liable to have DW backhand some sense into her. That sort of statement, made to the wrong woman suffering from PPD, could end up causing a death, either of the child or the mother. I would consider it that serious.
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests