How many smoking guns do you need?

[Hagoth]

Even critics of Joseph Smith's prophetic claims sometimes concede that there is no "smoking gun."

I disagree. I think there are three:

1- I think the Book of Abraham is a smoking gun, as does everyone who has ever looked into it who didn't already have a testimony of the church. He claimed to have actually, literally translated a document written by Abraham "in his own hand." It fails on every possible test, and it leaves no room to suggest that "translation" doesn't mean translation.

2- The recent discovery of Joseph's plagiarism of Adam Clarke's Bible Commentary in the "inspired" translation of the Bible appears to be emitting a dense trail of smoke too. Joseph never claimed to be collecting the comments of other commentators, he claimed to be re-translating the Bible by the gift and power of God.

3- The changes made to Book of Commandments revelations before they reappeared in the Doctrine and Covenants. Here we have Joseph changing the actual words of Jesus Christ, often to significantly modify their meaning as fit Joseph's needs at the time. These precious words or divine revelation, revealed finally to mankind after a centuries-long darkness. And Joseph just changes them as he sees fit. Smokin'.

If not smoking guns what are they? Near smoking guns? How many of those do you need to detect a pattern? Three legs makes for a pretty stable stool.

[jfro18]

I was walking my dog a little bit ago and was literally going to post this exact thread!

I think when talking about "smoking guns" you covered the basics, although I'd add the KJV phrases carried into the BoM count. Add Deutero-Isaiah and I think that's a smoking gun since neither the KJV changes nor the Deutero-Isaiah could've been available for the gold plates..

My wife said recently that if there was evidence the church was a fake, how are there any members left? I think clearly there is overwhelming evidence that it is fake, and that most of the reason members stay is that they don't know about it, don't want to know about it, or go the apologetic route that we can't know God's ways so why question it?

There are plenty of 'near' smoking guns too - this is just highlighting the truly indefensible stuff... the priesthood restoration changes, sealing revelation, polygamy screw-ups... those to me are all pretty close too.

[blazerb]

Personally, I needed a lot of smoking guns. I had so much emotional investment in the church. I had sacrificed so much of my life. My parents and grandparents gave up so much for the church. To admit that all that was wasted effort was huge. Of course, once I did, I felt so much better. Yes, I put a lot of effort into the church, but it developed my moral sense for the better, mostly. I'm moving on as best I can.

[Hagoth]

My wife said recently that if there was evidence the church was a fake, how are there any members left?

A question that would apply just as well to Scientology and many other organizations.

[jfro18]

My wife said recently that if there was evidence the church was a fake, how are there any members left?

A question that would apply just as well to Scientology and many other organizations.

Yep... or the FLDS or Islam or people buying into the latest pyramid scheme (which Utah leads the nation on).

[Not Buying It]

I’ve always regarded the Book of Abraham as the smoking gun, the only one you need really. If the mistranslations of the facsimiles don’t convince a person Joseph Smith was a fraud, nothing will.

[moksha]

I think NOMs hear the word Laurel and TBMs hear the word Yanny. The Yannyists know that guns do not smoke.

Find out for yourself: http://kutv.com/news/local/do-you-laure ... hear-yanny

[IT_Veteran]

My wife said recently that if there was evidence the church was a fake, how are there any members left?

I think your wife mistakenly nailed it on the head. There are so many members because even though they doubt or struggle with the claims of the church, they see everyone around them believes (appears to anyway). I thought for a long time that certainly the GA didn’t seem like liars, there must be something to it.

Or, like Greg Prince, they look and believe the fruits of the church are good, and that’s all that matters to them.

[JustHangingOn@57]

I think clearly there is overwhelming evidence that it is fake, and that most of the reason members stay is that they don't know about it, don't want to know about it, or go the apologetic route that we can't know God's ways so why question it?

If we took a poll at my house I would say my DW would fully admit to options #1 & 2, leaning heavily on 2. She simply doesn't want to know. The implications are too painful to contemplate.

[RubinHighlander]

My wife said recently that if there was evidence the church was a fake, how are there any members left?

A question that would apply just as well to Scientology and many other organizations.

Yep... or the FLDS or Islam or people buying into the latest pyramid scheme (which Utah leads the nation on).

And isn't this just the ultimate irony?! That someone in anyone of those religions looks at the other as some strange cultish crazy way to believe, wagging their heads in disbelief, that the other can believe that BS! They so easily discount the beliefs and testimonies of others as false, with a pious attitude that only they hold all the truth and the one true way. I'm still sloughing off the guilt I have for ever thinking that way.

[Corsair]

My wife said recently that if there was evidence the church was a fake, how are there any members left? I think clearly there is overwhelming evidence that it is fake, and that most of the reason members stay is that they don't know about it, don't want to know about it, or go the apologetic route that we can't know God's ways so why question it?

Why are there still Jehovah's Wintnesses around when their insular faith makes such heavy demands on their members? Can they not see the flaws in their belief system? If you talk politely to a Witness you will quickly find that they would have the same concerns about the LDS neighbors.

It's because humans don't like to change comfortable beliefs and it makes us far more resistant to other belief systems. Could any of us willingly change our beliefs and become Jehovah's Witnesses or Scientologists at this point? How about Muslim or Hindu? Would you consider changing political parties? In each of these cases there are people who would and do change religions, politics, and belief systems. We each find it so easy to see the flaws in other belief systems.

Each of us are very good at not seeing smoking guns against our own beliefs. It's not easy to develop the introspection and humility that would let us see them.

[slavereeno]

My Smoking Gun List

1. BoA
2. BoM anachronisms
3. Deutro-Isaiah
4. KJV wording/mistakes in BoM
5. Trinitarian view of BoM in early edition that was changed
6. Polygamy - effing all of it.
7. Kinderhook plates
8. Plagiarism of Adam Clarke
9. Literary analysis of the BoM
10. Translation process of the BoM - Joseph Smith's use of a rock that was used previously to scam people
11. Masonic aspects to Temple Ceremony
12. Inconsistency and impossibility of doctrine
13. DNA Evidence against the BoM
14. Missing archaeological evidence for BoM
15. And the absolute number one reason for me: The aggregate of numbers 1-14

My wife said recently that if there was evidence the church was a fake, how are there any members left?

I have had this question many a time.

[slavereeno]

Each of us are very good at not seeing smoking guns against our own beliefs. It's not easy to develop the introspection and humility that would let us see them.

This. I tried to argue once that having made a major switch in my life perhaps makes me more open to scrutinizing my bias. I may be giving myself more credit than I am due, but I have begun to see things in politics, and other arenas differently since my FT.

[Red Ryder]

My smoking gun list:

1. Because Joseph Smith said so.

It answers every single question asked!

• How do we know God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith?

• How do we know the Book of Mormon is a translation of ancient records?

• How do we know polygamy was true doctrine?

• How do we know...

[IT_Veteran]

Each of us are very good at not seeing smoking guns against our own beliefs. It's not easy to develop the introspection and humility that would let us see them.

This. I tried to argue once that having made a major switch in my life perhaps makes me more open to scrutinizing my bias. I may be giving myself more credit than I am due, but I have begun to see things in politics, and other arenas differently since my FT.

I don't think you're alone in that. Before my faith crisis I had become fairly moderate but leaned conservative on most things. Now that I'm done, I try to recognize my own biases (though I'm not always great at it) in everything. I've found I've shifted quite a bit to the left of what I ever considered possible on some things, not on others.

[IT_Veteran]

Each of us are very good at not seeing smoking guns against our own beliefs. It's not easy to develop the introspection and humility that would let us see them.

This. I tried to argue once that having made a major switch in my life perhaps makes me more open to scrutinizing my bias. I may be giving myself more credit than I am due, but I have begun to see things in politics, and other arenas differently since my FT.

I don't think you're alone in that. Before my faith crisis I had become fairly moderate but leaned conservative on most things. Now that I'm done, I try to recognize my own biases (though I'm not always great at it) in everything. I've found I've shifted quite a bit to the left of what I ever considered possible on some things, not on others.

[GoodBoy]

Those are great Hagoth! I need to listen to the new podcast that Bill Reel did on the sources for the JST translation.

The Book of Abraham was my smoking gun. Joseph Smith is referring to specific characters and saying they mean one thing and they DON'T! You can't say that translation doesn't mean translation.

"Fig. 2. King Pharaoh, whose name is given in the characters above his head."
"Fig. 4. Prince of Pharaoh, King of Egypt, as written above the hand."
"Fig. 5. Shulem, one of the king’s principal waiters, as represented by the characters above his hand."

[jfro18]

I think my smoking guns would go like this:
1. Book of Abraham
2. Translation/BoM issues (translation inconsistencies in the history, KJV words that weren't available, deutero-isaiah, etc)
3. The changes in the D&C that completely change the stories of polygamy, priesthood, etc
4. JST translation being effectively lifted from Clarke (listen to the Mormon Discussions podcast on it - very revealing)
5. Polygamy/Polyandry - it is sickening that anyone can read about that and feel like JS is anything but a serial adulterer using God to pressure women
6. That Mormons claim to have a direct line to God and yet punished black people until they were worried about losing tax exempt status/athletics revenue. What kind of God would allow the church to look so backwards and hateful for that long? Kind of weird, right?
7. This one is somewhat all-encompassing, but I would phrase it as *convenience* - let me explain
7a. When Hiram Page declared revelation from a seer stone, Joseph Smith immediately got a "revelation" that it was from the devil
7b. When Joseph Smith was caught sleeping around on Emma, he got a "revelation" that polygamy was totes OK now and Emma would be destroyed if she dared to get in the way
7c. When Joseph Smith needed to push Martin Harris for more money to print the BoM, he magically received a "revelation" from God to tell Martin Harris to sell whatever he needed to sell, but to get that money to him or else.
7d. When the 116 pages were lost, God told Joseph that he had always planned for this and that there was a plan B of another set of plates that had basically the same thing that covered the exact timeframe he had just translated.
7e. When they couldn't sell the copyright to Canada, JS conveniently discovered that some revelations are from God and some from man. Amazing.
7f. Joseph Smith using a rock in a hat for "convenience" after God commanded these plates along with the urim/thummim be passed down from generation to generation for the exact friggin purpose of translating the plates. HOW DOES THAT NOT RING MORE ALARM BELLS?!

I'm working on a priesthood thing that you've seen in the other thread, but my plan is to do a write-up of all the convenient things that God revealed that benefited JS specifically whenever JS needed to be bailed out or needed to pressure others. It is insane.

[wtfluff]

My wife said recently that if there was evidence the church was a fake, how are there any members left?

Perhaps you could flip this statement around and ask: "If the church were actually true, why is it that the vast majority of the human population knows nothing about it?"

Or simply point out the activity rate of so-called "mormons". The majority of "members" have actually left.

[jfro18]

My wife said recently that if there was evidence the church was a fake, how are there any members left?

Perhaps you could flip this statement around and ask: "If the church were actually true, why is it that the vast majority of the human population knows nothing about it?"

Or simply point out the activity rate of so-called "mormons". The majority of "members" have actually left.

I wish I had thought that way at the time, although to be honest I don't think people leaving the church is what will make her feel safer about investigating. I have no idea what will, but hopefully at some point she will be open to hearing these things... probably not, but I have to hope.