I think..... or I obey?

Discussions toward a better understanding of LDS doctrine, history, and culture. Discussion of Christianity, religion, and faith in general is welcome.
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deacon blues
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I think..... or I obey?

Post by deacon blues » Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:41 am

I think therefore I am.- Descartes

I obey therefore I.......

I obey therefor I am useful.- Deacon
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

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Just This Guy
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Re: I think..... or I obey?

Post by Just This Guy » Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:28 am

Shounds like something Out of Thomas the Tank Engine.

I think, therefore I am a really useful engine.
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

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Corsair
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Re: I think..... or I obey?

Post by Corsair » Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:29 am

I think therefore I obey:
Cogito ergo oboedieritis

I think or I obey:
Nec puto sententiae

I do not speak Latin, but this is a dramatic change of grammar between the two phrases. Also:

Cogito ergo sum ego bibendum
I drink, therefore I am

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Red Ryder
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Re: I think..... or I obey?

Post by Red Ryder » Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:16 pm

I eat, therefore I excrete!
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

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Random
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Re: I think..... or I obey?

Post by Random » Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:21 am

I think therefore I am.- Descartes

I obey therefore I am
brainwashed?

Okay, maybe that doesn't fit every situation, but I think I obeyed because I was convinced that if I didn't, I'd go to hell.
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

Reuben
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Re: I think..... or I obey?

Post by Reuben » Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:53 am

At work, I think, therefore I am useful. I obey some things, none of which curtail my thinking, and some of which are designed to encourage it. But if I thought women should stay home or LGBT people should stay quiet, I might feel like I'm obeying certain rules in order to be useful to people I disagree with.

I think it's important to remember that most believing Mormons haven't gone through a major change in beliefs that makes obedience seem oppressive or dehumanizing. Their actions on behalf of the church tend to be aligned with their thinking, and most feel like they're serving God.

FWIW, I like the fuller version of Descarte's principle by Thomas, but I'll expand it again: "I doubt [my existence], therefore I think, therefore I am."

Maybe there's a version of Deacon's principle for the nuanced believer: "I doubt [my beliefs], therefore I have faith, therefore I am useful [to God]."
Learn to doubt the stories you tell about yourselves and your adversaries.

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moksha
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Re: I think..... or I obey?

Post by moksha » Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:26 am

Trying to work through an LDS message I have heard: Obedience is the first principle of the Gospel.

Obedience is the first principle of the Gospel.
Obedience is the first principle of slavery.
Therefore, the Gospel is slavery.

Wonder what Socrates would say about LDS messages?
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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deacon blues
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Re: I think..... or I obey?

Post by deacon blues » Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:59 pm

The church needs a few people like Socrates to bring it back to reality. Sadly, people like Socrates sometimes get executed.The Church has the power to exclude and excommunicate, but (Thank God) not the power to execute those it judges. Unlike the Catholic Church, the LDS Church has not had that kind of power. There might have been some times in Church history where it seems apparent that Church leaders would have executed people if they could, but our apologist friends tells us that was just metaphor. ;)
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

Mackman
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Re: I think..... or I obey?

Post by Mackman » Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:16 am

I think we all need to go out for a cup of coffee.

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Rob4Hope
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Re: I think..... or I obey?

Post by Rob4Hope » Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:02 am

deacon blues wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:59 pm
The church needs a few people like Socrates to bring it back to reality. Sadly, people like Socrates sometimes get executed.The Church has the power to exclude and excommunicate, but (Thank God) not the power to execute those it judges. Unlike the Catholic Church, the LDS Church has not had that kind of power. There might have been some times in Church history where it seems apparent that Church leaders would have executed people if they could, but our apologist friends tells us that was just metaphor. ;)
Wife No 19 & Brigham's Destroying Angel books.

Deacon, I know you were talking tongue and cheek (a little...), but truth is, the LDS church leadership DID have the power to kill. And they used it. I'm sure you already know that, but for those who may read this thread, I posted those 2 book names. Read them...they are both VERY interesting...

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wtfluff
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Re: I think..... or I obey?

Post by wtfluff » Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:21 am

Mackman wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:16 am
I think we all need to go out for a cup of coffee.
Just one cup, right???

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Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

IDKSAF -RubinHighlander

You can surrender without a prayer...

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MerrieMiss
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Re: I think..... or I obey?

Post by MerrieMiss » Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:28 am

Just This Guy wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:28 am
Shounds like something Out of Thomas the Tank Engine.

I think, therefore I am a really useful engine.
Yes. This is still making me laugh a couple hours after reading it. It might help I'm hearing it in Ringo Starr's voice.

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