Thursday Night Group Therapy? (7pm pacific time)

This is for encouragement, ideas, and support for people going through a faith transition no matter where you hope to end up. This is also the place to laugh, cry, and love together.
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Red Ryder
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Thursday Night Group Therapy? (7pm pacific time)

Post by Red Ryder » Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:50 pm

It's been awhile since we had a NOM conference call. Anyone want to call in?

The hold music is pleasant. I'll wait for another 10 minutes and see if anyone joins.


213-493-0420
Pin: 08822

Full disclosure: you can be 99.9% anonymous but the uber conference site will capture your phone number. I'm the only person with access. You can dial *67 then the number above to disable caller ID.
Last edited by Red Ryder on Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

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jfro18
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Re: Anyone need to talk through this stuff?

Post by jfro18 » Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:22 pm

If DW wasn't here I'd call just to chat with y'all... would definitely be game another time though. She might find it horribly offensive for me to discuss this stuff in her presence. :lol:

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Hagoth
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Re: Anyone need to talk through this stuff?

Post by Hagoth » Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:58 am

Dang. I didn't see this until too late. Did anyone show up?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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crossmyheart
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Re: Anyone need to talk through this stuff?

Post by crossmyheart » Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:14 am

I wish I had seen this! Maybe schedule one for post-conference?

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StarbucksMom
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Re: Anyone need to talk through this stuff?

Post by StarbucksMom » Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:08 am

I missed the call, so can I talk through this with you guys online? Last night when I was discussing the POX reversal with my husband, he called me an anti mormon, said this didn't shake his testimony that the church/RMN are true at all, and also said that he knows Jesus is anti gay. He did manage to acknowledge that the POX was not in line with Jesus' teachings, ie punishing children bc a parent is gay, but...no matter what all is well in Zion!!!

Then a mormon friend who has left the church (I think he's still on the books as a member) is kind of an influential type and has LOTS of mormon/never mo friends posted about this and some of the responses....I just can't even. One guy who I can't stand and has always been a pompus ass was all--paraphrased--my 10 years working on the inside of the church....I have realized that there is the gospel church and people, and you have to separate them. The church is driven by imperfect beings but the gospel is true!!! Yay! The end! I am SO SICK of this BS. What makes the mormon church even the most true church ever on even the earth is prophetic revelation..which Russ claimed happened with the POX. Either you believe that or you don't. Russ said "Hey guys, this wasn't some rogue dude speaking as a man! Nope, all 15 went to the temple several times and God revealed this to even his prophet even Monson! God you guys! So shut up, support this, and pay us your money."

Then some other dude I don't know had to chime in and say---Calm down you uniformed heathens!!! direct quote now:
they are not fixing something they did wrong as it was done out of compassion. It was not a power play as it was done out of compassion to save families and not split them up. The lord knows what he is doing and he doesn't make mistakes. The church members as a whole and the world at that time was still not accepting of many things at that time and to best help save families rather than cause tension and anger the policy was made. Because members and the world are more accepting of decision and people as a whole it makes it so that policy is not so needed and can be taken away. No apology should be given and is not needed.
I am going to respond. I don't care that most of my mormon friends will see. Any suggestions?

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Red Ryder
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Re: Anyone need to talk through this stuff?

Post by Red Ryder » Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:33 am

Don't bother responding Starbucks Mom!

No amount of logic, compassion, or intelligence will get these types of people to evaluate their opinions about this.

They've already started with the answer so every conversation will defend their position.

The church is true.
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

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slavereeno
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Re: Anyone need to talk through this stuff?

Post by slavereeno » Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:47 am

Yes, I like the idea, but perhaps schedule in advance.

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Mormorrisey
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Re: Anyone need to talk through this stuff?

Post by Mormorrisey » Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:55 am

StarbucksMom wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:08 am
I missed the call, so can I talk through this with you guys online? Last night when I was discussing the POX reversal with my husband, he called me an anti mormon, said this didn't shake his testimony that the church/RMN are true at all, and also said that he knows Jesus is anti gay. He did manage to acknowledge that the POX was not in line with Jesus' teachings, ie punishing children bc a parent is gay, but...no matter what all is well in Zion!!!
Feel for you today about what you wrote here, SM - just talked to a daughter who thought I would be ecstatic about the change, but I was notably muted in my enthusiasm. I explained about God changing his mind, and isn't that weird? DD got her back up right away and said I was closed-minded. I was amazed at how calm I was when I said, "now, that's not going to help this conversation." She immediately apologized, stated that I needed to have more faith, and I just said that having more faith is just a deepity, an internet meme that means I just need to accept whatever the church does, and that ship has sailed. But I also told her she was free to think whatever she wanted about it, and we left it at that. I think that was the best response I could give. We ended the conversation on good terms, which is exactly how I want ALL conversations to go with my kids.

Luckily my other kids and even the missus knew I wouldn't be over the moon about a flip-flopping revelation, and just listened to why I wasn't too thrilled about it. But it's difficult to hear the "just have more faith" line of thinking - what kind of God dreams up these tests of faith, just to be a bit of a d**k to the members of his own church? Am I worshipping Loki now? The mental gymnastics are pretty complicated.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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MerrieMiss
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Re: Anyone need to talk through this stuff?

Post by MerrieMiss » Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:44 pm

slavereeno wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:47 am
Yes, I like the idea, but perhaps schedule in advance.
Same.

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MerrieMiss
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Re: Anyone need to talk through this stuff?

Post by MerrieMiss » Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:49 pm

I don't know what one says or does to change minds or have useful dialogue. I've long ago got to the point where if I think there's no bridging the gap, then I don't even bother to engage and in the few instances when I do, I usually regret it because it is a waste of time and energy. I'm fortunate in that my husband was bothered by the 2015 policy and he's bothered by the announcement yesterday. It doesn't change anything, he's still TBM, but I have hopes it adds a little weight to the shelf.

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achilles
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Re: Anyone need to talk through this stuff?

Post by achilles » Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:20 pm

MerrieMiss wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:49 pm
I don't know what one says or does to change minds or have useful dialogue. I've long ago got to the point where if I think there's no bridging the gap, then I don't even bother to engage and in the few instances when I do, I usually regret it because it is a waste of time and energy. I'm fortunate in that my husband was bothered by the 2015 policy and he's bothered by the announcement yesterday. It doesn't change anything, he's still TBM, but I have hopes it adds a little weight to the shelf.
Honestly, I think the only thing that can be done is to humbly (I can't think of a different word) describe the kind of tremendous pain and heartache that was caused by the Policy, that it deeply hurt many people (no, they weren't "offended"), and that basically it did nothing but bear bad fruit. Just like "you can't argue with someone's testimony", you can't really argue about whether or not people had these experiences. They simply did. Don't argue about whether or not the brethren were inspired, or whether or not it was "revelation". Just simply share peoples terrible experiences. Maybe it will plant a seed, or spark some empathy, or get people to try a little bit of multiple perspective-taking...
“For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.”

― Carl Sagan

Reuben
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Re: Anyone need to talk through this stuff?

Post by Reuben » Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:55 pm

"Just have faith" is in constant tension with "ye shall know them by their fruits." Mormons are told to resolve the tension by choosing "just have faith" for everything unfavorable toward the church and "ye shall know them by their fruits" for everything favorable. One problem is that it's a terrible way to maximize truth and goodness. The best proof is that every fundamentalist religion tells its adherents the same thing.

Here's another problem. Even though humans do this naturally, some eventually buckle under the weight of too many unfavorable things and start doing the fruit-based accounting. Those who haven't buckled get to feel like their religion is the best religion, and also that they're better people. (IMO, this is why "Abrahamic test" styles of explanation are gaining traction.) It's a double-minded way of being, but it works if you don't look too closely. Unfortunately, it creates insecurities that lead to defensiveness.

I can't stress enough that this is human nature that has to be trained out, usually by experience, and never completely. I'm sure everyone here still does it about something.
Learn to doubt the stories you tell about yourselves and your adversaries.

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MalcolmVillager
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Re: Anyone need to talk through this stuff?

Post by MalcolmVillager » Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:15 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:50 pm
It's been awhile since we had a NOM conference call. Anyone want to call in?

The hold music is pleasant. I'll wait for another 10 minutes and see if anyone joins.


213-493-0420
Pin: 08822

Full disclosure: you can be 99.9% anonymous but the uber conference site will capture your phone number. I'm the only person with access. You can dial *67 then the number above to disable caller ID.
Would have been fun to catch up. I am game for a call sometime this weekend. I have some IRL contacts to talk to but I remember the days when I didnt and would love to connect with anyone.

Mankhoj
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Re: Anyone need to talk through this stuff?

Post by Mankhoj » Sat Apr 06, 2019 5:33 pm

Wish I had seen this sooner. Would definately participate with advanced warning. Maybe try again some time later in April?

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wtfluff
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Re: Anyone need to talk through this stuff?

Post by wtfluff » Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:45 pm

So... What time tomorrow RR?
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

IDKSAF -RubinHighlander

You can surrender without a prayer...

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StarbucksMom
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Re: Anyone need to talk through this stuff?

Post by StarbucksMom » Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:59 pm


Feel for you today about what you wrote here, SM - just talked to a daughter who thought I would be ecstatic about the change, but I was notably muted in my enthusiasm. I explained about God changing his mind, and isn't that weird? DD got her back up right away and said I was closed-minded. I was amazed at how calm I was when I said, "now, that's not going to help this conversation." She immediately apologized, stated that I needed to have more faith, and I just said that having more faith is just a deepity, an internet meme that means I just need to accept whatever the church does, and that ship has sailed. But I also told her she was free to think whatever she wanted about it, and we left it at that. I think that was the best response I could give. We ended the conversation on good terms, which is exactly how I want ALL conversations to go with my kids.

Luckily my other kids and even the missus knew I wouldn't be over the moon about a flip-flopping revelation, and just listened to why I wasn't too thrilled about it. But it's difficult to hear the "just have more faith" line of thinking - what kind of God dreams up these tests of faith, just to be a bit of a d**k to the members of his own church? Am I worshipping Loki now? The mental gymnastics are pretty complicated.

Thank you Mormorrisey, it was kind of rough and then the next day I was angry. I want to say "thanks, I'd rather be anti-mormon than anti-Jesus." I settled on telling my youngest 3 (12-14 year olds) about the policy change. They were shocked that such an anti family, hateful policy was ever implemented, then called "revelation." I made sure to not leave out the fact that if a child DID want to be baptized/ordained at 18, they had to disavow their gay parent. They were not impressed and recognized how un-Christlike the whole thing was/is. My husband is the last man standing in our family, none of our 6 children believe anymore, but he is desperate to change our minds. Things like this idiotic policy don't help. If my husband would even just try to listen to me, I wouldn't be so purposeful about telling our kids about all the nonsense and bad history. (I don't get angry and I rarely bring anything up, I just state how I feel and ask what he thinks.) But he always immediately puts his hands over his ears, and starts loudly singing "the church is true, la la la, the church is true, la la la." He won't read the essays, says he doesn't want or need to study his religion, etc etc etc. He just asks me "so what church do you believe in now? You're anti Mormon so what religion are you?" Jesus' teachings isn't enough, I have to know another church is true.

For example, after watching Selma (we like movies like that and Lincoln, Lee Daniels the Butler etc) I tried to talk to my husband about how I felt about being on the wrong side of history with blacks in the church. I quoted some things, and brought up that Abraham Lincoln was born within a few short years of Brigham and Joseph. So who was called of God to come to the earth at that time to truly make a difference? I said I believed it was Abraham Lincoln. I asked my husband how he felt about the church's treatment of blacks, and why none of the prophets til 1970s got it right, and he actually said "so you believe in the church of Abraham Lincoln now?" :roll:

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Red Ryder
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Re: Anyone need to talk through this stuff?

Post by Red Ryder » Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:51 am

Anyone up for Thursday Night Group Therapy?
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

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slavereeno
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Re: Anyone need to talk through this stuff?

Post by slavereeno » Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:06 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:51 am
Anyone up for Thursday Night Group Therapy?
Sure, what time?

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jfro18
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Re: Thursday Night Group Therapy?

Post by jfro18 » Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:37 pm

Depending on the time I'll try to hop on -- would be tough if DW is here but we'll see. Maybe I will time that out to run to the store which I actually need to do tonight after my kid's baseball practice. :lol:

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Red Ryder
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Re: Thursday Night Group Therapy?

Post by Red Ryder » Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:55 pm

Lets do it at 7:00PM pacific time.


The number doesn't need a host so anyone can start or join a call at anytime.
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

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