Shunning the shunners

Discussions about negotiating relationships between faithful LDS believers and the apostates who love them. This applies in particular to mixed-faith marriages, but relations with children, parents, siblings, friends, and ward members is very welcome.
Thoughtful
Posts: 933
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:54 pm

Shunning the shunners

Post by Thoughtful » Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:13 am

Has anyone here cut out family and willing to tell the tale?

Its clear our boundaries with my pediphile apologist inlaws isn't enough to limit thier aggression toward us and we will go no contact. Its likely we will be cutting off all contact with the entire clan for the forseeable future. Its also likely every time an individual faces a parole board we will be blamed over again for not forgiving.

Tips and tricks?

User avatar
crossmyheart
Posts: 361
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:02 am
Location: Where the wind comes sweeping down the plain

Re: Shunning the shunners

Post by crossmyheart » Mon Jul 29, 2019 1:41 pm

I no longer have contact with a toxic and abusive sibling. I told him to never call me again and blocked his number. I told my family to never speak of him again around me. It was difficult at first, other family members would bring up gossip or complain about something related to the sibling and I would have to physically leave or hang up. It took a LOT of repetitions over the course of a couple of years to get them to understand that I wanted nothing to do with him and did not want to know anything about him.

I now know nothing about him or his life, my mother still brings him up on occasion and I change the subject. Sometimes I can tell she is testing the water to see if I will allow it, but she knows I mean it when I end a phone conversation over it.

He is in poor health. I have made it clear to my family that I don't even want to know when he dies. I am sure they will still call me.

User avatar
wtfluff
Posts: 2244
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:20 pm
Location: Worshiping Gravity / Pulling Taffy

Re: Shunning the shunners

Post by wtfluff » Mon Jul 29, 2019 2:13 pm

I've done self-imposed "less contact" with my family, but never complete no contact.

That being said, I have no advice, but in your case I hope that I would make the no contact decision as soon as possible.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

Brilliant.

User avatar
alas
Posts: 1289
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 2:10 pm

Re: Shunning the shunners

Post by alas » Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:37 pm

I did a no contact with my abusive father for a few years. My family wasn’t really what you could call supportive. They wouldn’t not nite him in order to have me come. And I got some pushback. But then I didn’t really expect much different. I finally decided that the only way to see the rest of my family was to decide that I could tolerate being in the same room. But they never stopped trying to push me to actually talk to him. Even at his funeral, I got pushed to give a final goodby. No thanks, I am thinking of dancing on his grave instead.

Somehow people forget you can forgive but still not want an unrepentant abuser in your life, so I caught criticism for not forgiving. They pretended that my reconciling with him was for *my* benefit, but my mental health was so much better when I was not around him. It really improved when he died.

But my family didn’t quite so openly disbelieve me, they just didn’t want the whole thing to inconvenience them too much.

But you do what is best for your children and yourself. I would consider how your family has handled things as more abuse, so while my family was not supportive, they were also not abusive.

User avatar
MoPag
Posts: 1928
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 2:05 pm

Re: Shunning the shunners

Post by MoPag » Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:09 am

I went no-contact with my ex and his family. My ex and my ex MIL are responsible for my son's death. They are both completely unremorseful. It's really sickening.

It's kind of weird, but the act of thinking about going no-contact was harder than actually doing it. My mental health has greatly improved since then. Check YouTube for videos about going no-contact. I remember watching a few of those. I'll try to find the ones that helped me and post links when I get off work.

Another thing that helps me is the "gray rock approach" for times when you have can't avoid being in their presence. (Like for legal matters, etc.) Basically you just be as bland and boring as a gray rock. I learned in my situation, my pain and anger just feed their narcissism.

Going through crap like this really sucks. Big ((hugs)) for you!
...walked eye-deep in hell
believing in old men’s lies...--Ezra Pound

Thoughtful
Posts: 933
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:54 pm

Re: Shunning the shunners

Post by Thoughtful » Wed Aug 07, 2019 1:52 pm

MoPag wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:09 am
I went no-contact with my ex and his family. My ex and my ex MIL are responsible for my son's death. They are both completely unremorseful. It's really sickening.

It's kind of weird, but the act of thinking about going no-contact was harder than actually doing it. My mental health has greatly improved since then. Check YouTube for videos about going no-contact. I remember watching a few of those. I'll try to find the ones that helped me and post links when I get off work.

Another thing that helps me is the "gray rock approach" for times when you have can't avoid being in their presence. (Like for legal matters, etc.) Basically you just be as bland and boring as a gray rock. I learned in my situation, my pain and anger just feed their narcissism.

Going through crap like this really sucks. Big ((hugs)) for you!
Thank you. I've explored you tube a bit. There's no question we are interacting with some big personality disorders (didn't use YT to determine that). These are great tips. I'm still so sorry about your son's death. That they are unremorseful is gross. Unfortunately, it's very familiar to how certain family members act here too. They're done some incredibly damaging things that make them very unsafe.

User avatar
Corsair
Posts: 2658
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 9:58 am
Location: Phoenix

Re: Shunning the shunners

Post by Corsair » Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:41 pm

Thoughtful wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:13 am
Its clear our boundaries with my pediphile apologist inlaws isn't enough to limit thier aggression toward us and we will go no contact. Its likely we will be cutting off all contact with the entire clan for the forseeable future. Its also likely every time an individual faces a parole board we will be blamed over again for not forgiving.
That's a really tough situation. Forgiveness would seem like a very difficult situation that might result in letting a perpetrator get back into contact with potential victims. Removing them all from your life is probably for the best.

Thoughtful
Posts: 933
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:54 pm

Re: Shunning the shunners

Post by Thoughtful » Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:17 pm

Corsair wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:41 pm
Thoughtful wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:13 am
Its clear our boundaries with my pediphile apologist inlaws isn't enough to limit thier aggression toward us and we will go no contact. Its likely we will be cutting off all contact with the entire clan for the forseeable future. Its also likely every time an individual faces a parole board we will be blamed over again for not forgiving.
That's a really tough situation. Forgiveness would seem like a very difficult situation that might result in letting a perpetrator get back into contact with potential victims. Removing them all from your life is probably for the best.
Perpetrator will go to prison, likely for a very very long time. However several other family members enabled it, so they aren't exactly safe people.

Thoughtful
Posts: 933
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:54 pm

Re: Shunning the shunners

Post by Thoughtful » Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:24 pm

This is so painful. Spouseman met with a brother Saturday and they talked about the issues. This BIL is incredibly kind, but also delusional. We learned some more bad stuff about people. It's nearly impossible to conceptualize any way a relationship can continue.

Advice for how to support Spouseman well though essentially, the (figurative) death of his entire family at once?

User avatar
Mormorrisey
Posts: 673
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 6:54 pm

Re: Shunning the shunners

Post by Mormorrisey » Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:56 am

Corsair wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:41 pm
Thoughtful wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:13 am
Its clear our boundaries with my pediphile apologist inlaws isn't enough to limit thier aggression toward us and we will go no contact. Its likely we will be cutting off all contact with the entire clan for the forseeable future. Its also likely every time an individual faces a parole board we will be blamed over again for not forgiving.
That's a really tough situation. Forgiveness would seem like a very difficult situation that might result in letting a perpetrator get back into contact with potential victims. Removing them all from your life is probably for the best.
Absolutely this. The forgiveness loop simply is a means for narcissists, abusers and the like to enable/continue their abuse because you "have to forgive them, it's Christ's way." Uh, no. I've cut out my narcissist mother from my life, and while that was more difficult on Sis M because she buys the forgiveness racket, it's given me the peace I need, and I no longer have to deal with manipulative, abusive emails or phone calls on the state of my soul. I don't need that crap in my life. And my kids have always felt intimidated by their grandma, and now they don't have to put up with her either, so I've "protected" them as well. And clearly, from all the posts I've read of yours, you understand the need to protect your kids over your relationship with your enabling in-laws. I know you don't need an internet stranger's validation, but absolutely you're doing the right thing, as hard as it is. I'm sure I'll have a few pangs of guilt when my Mom dies, but for now, I'm not getting abused, so it's worth it.

Good luck with all of this.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

Thoughtful
Posts: 933
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:54 pm

Re: Shunning the shunners

Post by Thoughtful » Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:22 pm

Mormorrisey wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:56 am
Corsair wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:41 pm
Thoughtful wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:13 am
Its clear our boundaries with my pediphile apologist inlaws isn't enough to limit thier aggression toward us and we will go no contact. Its likely we will be cutting off all contact with the entire clan for the forseeable future. Its also likely every time an individual faces a parole board we will be blamed over again for not forgiving.
That's a really tough situation. Forgiveness would seem like a very difficult situation that might result in letting a perpetrator get back into contact with potential victims. Removing them all from your life is probably for the best.
Absolutely this. The forgiveness loop simply is a means for narcissists, abusers and the like to enable/continue their abuse because you "have to forgive them, it's Christ's way." Uh, no. I've cut out my narcissist mother from my life, and while that was more difficult on Sis M because she buys the forgiveness racket, it's given me the peace I need, and I no longer have to deal with manipulative, abusive emails or phone calls on the state of my soul. I don't need that crap in my life. And my kids have always felt intimidated by their grandma, and now they don't have to put up with her either, so I've "protected" them as well. And clearly, from all the posts I've read of yours, you understand the need to protect your kids over your relationship with your enabling in-laws. I know you don't need an internet stranger's validation, but absolutely you're doing the right thing, as hard as it is. I'm sure I'll have a few pangs of guilt when my Mom dies, but for now, I'm not getting abused, so it's worth it.

Good luck with all of this.
Yeah, signs point to FIL being a narcissist, MIL being borderline personality disordered, and their children largely acting out the roles children act out in dysfunctional systems: codependence, addiction, mental illness, suicide, forgiveness above safety, family unity above morality. Spouseman is so angry right now at what he learned about his father's behavior on Saturday I just don't think there's a way to come back from it. Honestly I doubt there's a therapist within 500 miles qualified to weed through this family system and mediate it toward health. And that's what's needed because none of these people see reality.

User avatar
Linked
Posts: 1000
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 4:04 pm

Re: Shunning the shunners

Post by Linked » Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:27 pm

Thoughtful wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:24 pm
This is so painful. Spouseman met with a brother Saturday and they talked about the issues. This BIL is incredibly kind, but also delusional. We learned some more bad stuff about people. It's nearly impossible to conceptualize any way a relationship can continue.

Advice for how to support Spouseman well though essentially, the (figurative) death of his entire family at once?
Wow, it was already bad enough. Sorry you are having to go through this, Thoughtful. Hang in there through the tough moments.

As for supporting your Spouseman, I'm not sure how he grieves. If it were me I would want to talk about all the different aspects of it everyday for six months, then every other day for six months, and eventually I would be done. Let him talk about it when he wants to. Also have a way to move forward, but if possible don't force him to move faster than he is comfortable. What I mean by a way to move forward is a way to replace the hole in his life; like family traditions and a new support system. What I mean by not forcing him is that some days he may just need to not replace things and feel the loss.

I hope you both make it thru this okay, and good job protecting your kids.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

Thoughtful
Posts: 933
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:54 pm

Re: Shunning the shunners

Post by Thoughtful » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:36 pm

Linked wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:27 pm
Thoughtful wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:24 pm
This is so painful. Spouseman met with a brother Saturday and they talked about the issues. This BIL is incredibly kind, but also delusional. We learned some more bad stuff about people. It's nearly impossible to conceptualize any way a relationship can continue.

Advice for how to support Spouseman well though essentially, the (figurative) death of his entire family at once?
Wow, it was already bad enough. Sorry you are having to go through this, Thoughtful. Hang in there through the tough moments.

As for supporting your Spouseman, I'm not sure how he grieves. If it were me I would want to talk about all the different aspects of it everyday for six months, then every other day for six months, and eventually I would be done. Let him talk about it when he wants to. Also have a way to move forward, but if possible don't force him to move faster than he is comfortable. What I mean by a way to move forward is a way to replace the hole in his life; like family traditions and a new support system. What I mean by not forcing him is that some days he may just need to not replace things and feel the loss.

I hope you both make it thru this okay, and good job protecting your kids.
Thank you. I appreciate this.

User avatar
Palerider
Posts: 1521
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2016 8:44 am

Re: Shunning the shunners

Post by Palerider » Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:42 am

The LDS church (and others) are SO misguided on the forgiveness principle. They don't understand it and have actually corrupted it.

I've written this before but maybe you all will indulge me one more time?

1. Big difference between "forgiveness" and "reconciliation".

Anciently in tribal situations someone who was offended took their own vengeance. "You killed my brother, so now in my hot anger, I'm going to kill you, your wife, your children.... maybe your whole freaking tribe because you're all just a bunch of bad people anyway. Yep....I'm going to lay waste to all you bastards for what you have done.

Enter the Law of Moses. In essence it says, "You can't take more vengeance than is right and proper. An eye for an eye. A tooth for a tooth". No more wreaking havoc on everyone. This was a big step in the right direction.

Enter the higher law of Christ:
You have offended me but I'm not going to take any VENGEANCE on you. Instead I'm going to forgive you. THAT DOES NOT MEAN WE ARE RECONCILED....
It only means I'm not going to seek vengeance. Vengeance is God's to take.

It doesn't mean I won't let civil law take it's course. Civil law is there to protect the innocent. It's a good thing!

Reconciliation is interlocked with TRUST. We don't automatically grant strangers access to our lives. Neither do we grant access to those who have become ESTRANGED to us through their evil deeds. They have abused the trust we gave them and now it's going to take a long time to regain that trust. It may never happen. But at least we have forgiven them so that we didn't beat them to a pulp or kill them in our anger.....and it allows us to get on with our lives in a mentally healthy way.

Reconciliation means that the offender has made such significant changes in their life which have been proven over a LONG period of time that we can now TRUST them to come back into our lives. Reconciliation is a great deal more than a lip service apology. With some offenders who are mentally bent or twisted, true reconciliation may never happen.
Doesn't mean we haven't forgiven them. Just means we aren't stupid about who we permit into our lives.

The horror stories that come out of the church on this issue of repentance and forgiveness should be a big red flag that their approach and understanding here is extremely flawed. I can only believe that Joseph Smith is responsible for setting the culture in the way he "forgave" so called offenders (who were really just following his example) and then quickly re-baptized them back into the church.

Just look at how long the church waits now to have someone re-baptized. Look how many hoops you have to jump through to make them happy and feel secure. So for the organization, they get to wait as long as they want and you come to them on their terms only. But for Mormon families immediate reconciliation is the expectation. It's hypocritical.

ETA: This poor woman was part of the September Six who were excommunicated 23 years ago and the church still won't approve her re-baptism. Church leadership may have "forgiven" her but no way are they going to reconcile with her as long as they consider her a threat.
If it's good enough for church leadership, it's good enough for you.

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2019/09 ... municated/
Last edited by Palerider on Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:29 am, edited 4 times in total.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

User avatar
Fifi de la Vergne
Posts: 207
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 8:56 am

Re: Shunning the shunners

Post by Fifi de la Vergne » Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:33 pm

Palerider wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:42 am
The LDS church (and others) are SO misguided on the forgiveness principle. They don't understand it and have actually corrupted it.

I've written this before but maybe you all will indulge me one more time?

1. Big difference between "forgiveness" and "reconciliation".

Anciently in tribal situations someone who was offended took their own vengeance. "You killed my brother, so now in my hot anger, I'm going to kill you, your wife, your children.... maybe your whole freaking tribe because you're all just a bunch of bad people anyway. Yep....I'm going to lay waste to all you bastards for what you have done.

Enter the Law of Moses. In essence it says, "You can't take more vengeance than is right and proper. An eye for an eye. A tooth for a tooth". No more wreaking havoc on everyone. This was a big step in the right direction.

Enter the higher law of Christ:
You have offended me but I'm not going to take any VENGEANCE on you. Instead I'm going to forgive you. THAT DOES NOT MEAN WE ARE RECONCILED....
It only means I'm not going to seek vengeance. Vengeance is God's to take.

It doesn't mean I won't let civil law take it's course. Civil law is there to protect the innocent. It's a good thing!

Reconciliation is interlocked with TRUST. We don't automatically grant strangers access to our lives. Neither do we grant access to those who have become ESTRANGED to us through their evil deeds. They have abused the trust we gave them and now it's going to take a long time to regain that trust. It may never happen. But at least we have forgiven them so that we didn't beat them to a pulp or kill them in our anger.....and it allows us to get on with our lives in a mentally healthy way.

Reconciliation means that the offender has made such significant changes in their life which have been proven over a LONG period of time that we can now TRUST them to come back into our lives. Reconciliation is a great deal more than a lip service apology. With some offenders who are mentally bent or twisted, true reconciliation may never happen.
Doesn't mean we haven't forgiven them. Just means we aren't stupid about who we permit into our lives.

The horror stories that come out of the church on this issue of repentance and forgiveness should be a big red flag that their approach and understanding here is extremely flawed. I can only believe that Joseph Smith is responsible for setting the culture in the way he "forgave" so called offenders (who were really just following his example) and then quickly re-baptized them back into the church.

Just look at how long the church waits now to have someone re-baptized. Look how many hoops you have to jump through to make them happy and feel secure. So for the organization, they get to wait as long as they want and you come to them on their terms only. But for Mormon families immediate reconciliation is the expectation. It's hypocritical.
You may have written about this before, but this is the first time I've seen it. I found it extremely enlightening -- your explication of the difference between forgiveness and reconciliation, but also your explanation of the law of Moses. I never considered it as a lesser vengeance than what had been previously, but as a more brutal, pitiless law than Christ's mercy.

Posts like this -- and because I care about what is happening with you all -- is why I continue to visit the board (although I mostly just lurk).
Joy is the emotional expression of the courageous Yes to one's own true being.

Thoughtful
Posts: 933
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:54 pm

Re: Shunning the shunners

Post by Thoughtful » Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:35 am

My inlaws are trying to meet with Spouseman today. They have such a long history of control over him, I am praying to all the Gods that may be to give him strength to tell them where to stick it.

Thoughtful
Posts: 933
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:54 pm

Re: Shunning the shunners

Post by Thoughtful » Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:36 am

Palerider wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:42 am
The LDS church (and others) are SO misguided on the forgiveness principle. They don't understand it and have actually corrupted it.

I've written this before but maybe you all will indulge me one more time?

1. Big difference between "forgiveness" and "reconciliation".

Anciently in tribal situations someone who was offended took their own vengeance. "You killed my brother, so now in my hot anger, I'm going to kill you, your wife, your children.... maybe your whole freaking tribe because you're all just a bunch of bad people anyway. Yep....I'm going to lay waste to all you bastards for what you have done.

Enter the Law of Moses. In essence it says, "You can't take more vengeance than is right and proper. An eye for an eye. A tooth for a tooth". No more wreaking havoc on everyone. This was a big step in the right direction.

Enter the higher law of Christ:
You have offended me but I'm not going to take any VENGEANCE on you. Instead I'm going to forgive you. THAT DOES NOT MEAN WE ARE RECONCILED....
It only means I'm not going to seek vengeance. Vengeance is God's to take.

It doesn't mean I won't let civil law take it's course. Civil law is there to protect the innocent. It's a good thing!

Reconciliation is interlocked with TRUST. We don't automatically grant strangers access to our lives. Neither do we grant access to those who have become ESTRANGED to us through their evil deeds. They have abused the trust we gave them and now it's going to take a long time to regain that trust. It may never happen. But at least we have forgiven them so that we didn't beat them to a pulp or kill them in our anger.....and it allows us to get on with our lives in a mentally healthy way.

Reconciliation means that the offender has made such significant changes in their life which have been proven over a LONG period of time that we can now TRUST them to come back into our lives. Reconciliation is a great deal more than a lip service apology. With some offenders who are mentally bent or twisted, true reconciliation may never happen.
Doesn't mean we haven't forgiven them. Just means we aren't stupid about who we permit into our lives.

The horror stories that come out of the church on this issue of repentance and forgiveness should be a big red flag that their approach and understanding here is extremely flawed. I can only believe that Joseph Smith is responsible for setting the culture in the way he "forgave" so called offenders (who were really just following his example) and then quickly re-baptized them back into the church.

Just look at how long the church waits now to have someone re-baptized. Look how many hoops you have to jump through to make them happy and feel secure. So for the organization, they get to wait as long as they want and you come to them on their terms only. But for Mormon families immediate reconciliation is the expectation. It's hypocritical.
Much appreciated and well articulated.

User avatar
Random
Posts: 962
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2017 8:44 pm

Re: Shunning the shunners

Post by Random » Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:44 pm

Thoughtful wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:35 am
My inlaws are trying to meet with Spouseman today. They have such a long history of control over him, I am praying to all the Gods that may be to give him strength to tell them where to stick it.
I hope he was given the strength.
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

User avatar
Linked
Posts: 1000
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 4:04 pm

Re: Shunning the shunners

Post by Linked » Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:31 pm

Thoughtful wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:35 am
My inlaws are trying to meet with Spouseman today. They have such a long history of control over him, I am praying to all the Gods that may be to give him strength to tell them where to stick it.
How did the meeting go?
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

Thoughtful
Posts: 933
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:54 pm

Re: Shunning the shunners

Post by Thoughtful » Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:50 pm

Linked wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:31 pm
Thoughtful wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:35 am
My inlaws are trying to meet with Spouseman today. They have such a long history of control over him, I am praying to all the Gods that may be to give him strength to tell them where to stick it.
How did the meeting go?
He DECLINED!

It was a Christmas miracle.

He's run into them twice since around town and they barely acknowledged him with a greeting at the first, and completely ignored him at the second.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest