Gods All The Way Down

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1smartdodog
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Gods All The Way Down

Post by 1smartdodog » Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:09 am

In my believing days there was the notion or doctrine that there are multiple gods. That our god had a god, and his god had a god, back to infinity. Then you move forward and you can become a god, and sire more gods forever into the future.

In some crazy way it was the one doctrine that made sense to me, and still does to some extent. Not that I relish godhood or power, just it sort of explained how the universe works. I could never fathom one god to rule it all. The universe is just too big.

Then Gordon Hinckley makes his famous statement in an interview that we don't really teach that. I was stunned, I was watching that interview way back when and I remember thinking WTF. It was the one doctrine that seemed to set us apart. Why did he not stand up and say yes. Is it not marvelous that we can all become like god. Own it, wear it like a badge of honor. Don't back down in a wimpier because you are afraid of the backlash. I can say that may have the been the beginning of my realization the whole program is a scam.

Move forward some years and I find myself wondering is it possible that we can become gods. Not so much in the Mormon sense, getting there my some inane rituals and adherence to a set of arbitrary rules. Maybe it is just part of the universal plan that we progress through eternity, growing and acquiring more knowledge. Maybe we do our own Big Bang some day. Maybe there is more to my existence than a brief whimper of time spent on this planet. I. hope for that. I have no knowledge it is so, but something to think about.
“Five percent of the people think; ten percent of the people think they think; and the other eighty-five percent would rather die than think.”
― Thomas A. Edison

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FiveFingerMnemonic
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Re: Gods All The Way Down

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:18 am

This doctrine became really problematic for me on my mission in the Southern US when the biblically educated would whip out Isaiah 44:6

"Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God."

I eventually just put it on the shelf and justified it as "oh Isaiah was only talking about the pagan gods" or "there is only one god for us, but there could be more of them for others".


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Hagoth
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Re: Gods All The Way Down

Post by Hagoth » Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:59 am

Yup, this is the huge underlying problem of Mormon Doctrine. You can trace the evolution of Man back over a half billion years or so to the basic tetrapod skeleton, which first appeared in the early Devonian. Everything after that was a variation of the same skeleton architecture. How is it that the God that appeared in the Sacred Grove, who predates the earth by who knows how many billions of years, ended up with the exact same skeletal pattern (based on his outward appearance)?

I'm with you, Dog. The church should just adopt the "we're-the-church-that-can-turn-you-into-a-God" party line and stop trying to pander to the mediocre. They are too cowardly to own up to their own fundamental doctrine. While they're at it they can stop poking pointed sticks at evolution (e.g. Nelson's print shop strawman) and just take a stand, maybe go back to the JFS-type assertions that the fossil record is a satanic trick. They could really clean up their doctrine for those who are going to believe whatever they're told anyway. Might as well just claim that Satan has changed the wording of all historic church documents too, so we should ignore them at the risk of falling under his spell.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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MoPag
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Re: Gods All The Way Down

Post by MoPag » Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:46 am

1smartdodog wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:09 am
Maybe it is just part of the universal plan that we progress through eternity, growing and acquiring more knowledge. Maybe we do our own Big Bang some day. Maybe there is more to my existence than a brief whimper of time spent on this planet. I. hope for that. I have no knowledge it is so, but something to think about.
I like this^^ I'm hoping for something like this too. :)
...walked eye-deep in hell
believing in old men’s lies...--Ezra Pound

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MalcolmVillager
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Re: Gods All The Way Down

Post by MalcolmVillager » Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:17 pm

Turtles all the way down.
Gods all the way down.
One eternal round.
We had parents in heaven.
We will become gods.
The chicken and the egg.

All different ways to say we just dont know but we want a simple answer.

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Ghost
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Re: Gods All The Way Down

Post by Ghost » Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:37 pm

1smartdodog wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:09 am
Move forward some years and I find myself wondering is it possible that we can become gods. Not so much in the Mormon sense, getting there my some inane rituals and adherence to a set of arbitrary rules. Maybe it is just part of the universal plan that we progress through eternity, growing and acquiring more knowledge.
I remember reading something by Richard Dawkins (Maybe in The God Delusion) saying that he could find acceptable the idea of a being that has evolved to the point that we'd consider the being a god. Of course, this would not qualify as a "plan." But it's a fun idea.

William W. Phelps kind of acknowledged that the idea of generations of gods stretching back through eternity isn't any more satisfying or comprehensible than the idea of a single God that has been around forever.
If You Could Hie to Kolob wrote: Do you think that you could ever,
Through all eternity,
Find out the generation
Where Gods began to be?

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blazerb
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Re: Gods All The Way Down

Post by blazerb » Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:41 pm

Ghost wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:37 pm
I remember reading something by Richard Dawkins (Maybe in The God Delusion) saying that he could find acceptable the idea of a being that has evolved to the point that we'd consider the being a god. Of course, this would not qualify as a "plan." But it's a fun idea.
It is fun, but, given what I see on this planet, a being that evolves to the point of being a god has a good chance of being an a**hole. That might explain some things, actually.

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Re: Gods All The Way Down

Post by misterfake371 » Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:00 pm

I'm in the slow process of becoming Catholic, and I now realize that the Mormon concept of becoming Gods is heretical. The whole Adam and Eve story is about the danger of wanting to be like God. Adam and Eve want to become like God. They want to gain His knowledge. That was a bad thing, and God punishes them for it.

The sin of wanting to become Gods is also what the Tower of Babel story is about. The builders of the Tower of Babel wanted to get to Heaven. So God destroyed their tower and confused their languages, to teach them (and us) a lesson: I'm God, you're my creation, and that relationship is never going to change.

I believe now that we are the creations of God, not the children of God.
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep His commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. Ecclesiastes 12:13

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Palerider
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Re: Gods All The Way Down

Post by Palerider » Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:00 pm

misterfake371 wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:00 pm
I'm in the slow process of becoming Catholic, and I now realize that the Mormon concept of becoming Gods is heretical. The whole Adam and Eve story is about the danger of wanting to be like God. Adam and Eve want to become like God. They want to gain His knowledge. That was a bad thing, and God punishes them for it.


I believe now that we are the creations of God, not the children of God.
I was just wondering if you are familiar with the concept of a "fortunate fall"?

It's difficult for me to see our present circumstance as being purely a punishment from God when it was He who placed the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden to begin with. Why put it there in the first place if it was such a liability and an undesirable outcome??? One might think if He didn't want us to learn by our experiences here and become like Him, He would have kept that tree very far away from us.

There are bunches of Biblical scriptures that refer to us either as God's children or having the opportunity to become such.

John

"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name..."

The Lord's prayer even alludes to the relationship:

"Our Father which art in Heaven..."

I'm not defending the Mormon way of defining the relationship between God and man. I'm just curious how you might reconcile this?
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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moksha
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Re: Gods All The Way Down

Post by moksha » Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:56 am

Palerider wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:00 pm
... it was He who placed the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden, to begin with. Why put it there in the first place if it was such a liability and an undesirable outcome??? One might think if He didn't want us to learn by our experiences here and become like Him, He would have kept that tree very far away from us.
If you are able to view our allegory as but one in an earthly garden of allegories, then the tree can become a symbol of sentience, which is a good thing.

On the other hand, we could view that orange guy as proof of devolution and perhaps that the sentience giving capacity of the tree as waning.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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alas
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Re: Gods All The Way Down

Post by alas » Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:59 am

Palerider wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:00 pm
misterfake371 wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:00 pm
I'm in the slow process of becoming Catholic, and I now realize that the Mormon concept of becoming Gods is heretical. The whole Adam and Eve story is about the danger of wanting to be like God. Adam and Eve want to become like God. They want to gain His knowledge. That was a bad thing, and God punishes them for it.


I believe now that we are the creations of God, not the children of God.
I was just wondering if you are familiar with the concept of a "fortunate fall"?

It's difficult for me to see our present circumstance as being purely a punishment from God when it was He who placed the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden to begin with. Why put it there in the first place if it was such a liability and an undesirable outcome??? One might think if He didn't want us to learn by our experiences here and become like Him, He would have kept that tree very far away from us.

There are bunches of Biblical scriptures that refer to us either as God's children or having the opportunity to become such.

John

"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name..."

The Lord's prayer even alludes to the relationship:

"Our Father which art in Heaven..."

I'm not defending the Mormon way of defining the relationship between God and man. I'm just curious how you might reconcile this?
This is how I feel about the Catholic view of the Garden of Eden. There are just too many problems to say God is punishing us for wanting to be like him. First of all, as Pale Rider points out, the story has plot glitches if God really wanted to keep them away from the tree of knowledge. Second, the “punishments” are all natural consequences of mortality.

As part of the “punishments” or simply natural consequences of mortality, death is required if there are going to be births. Joseph Smith got that one right. No mortality, no new babies because this earth has a finite carrying capacity. So, no death means God would have had to limit the number of humans to a few billion and consider if Eve was still around having babies along with all the children of Adam and Eve. The cut off would have been long ago and YOU wouldn’t be around. Nope, death was necessary for there to be birth. They are part of the same mortality.

And Adam laboring to grow food, yup mortals gotta eat. Eve laboring to give birth (saying she will bring forth children in pain is a mistranslation. The same word is used for what Adam does in the fields as for Eve giving birth.) well, human’s big heads is what gives them enough knowledge to know good from evil, and that is why human birth is more dangerous and labor intensive than any animal. Adam ruling over Eve, not punishment but part of the evil that got unleashed with the fall. Adam rules because he is physically stronger and tends to do Evil, not because God wanted him to.

Nope, it only makes sense as an allegory for humans choosing mortality over G of E existence. They choose, knowing it would bring death into the world. Teaches us just how important the knowledge of good and evil is, worth dying for.

Or as a pagan story of conflict between the Creator God and the Goddess of Wisdom who was in cahoots with the Fertility Goddess. (the snake was always symbol for the Goddess of Wisdom and the fig leaves are symbol for Fertility.) that the Hebrews adopted without realizing it was pagan, sort of like Christmas.

Mackman
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Re: Gods All The Way Down

Post by Mackman » Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:04 pm

This doctrine is what actually broke my shelf some years ago !!!! No way I can believe God was once a man and we can become as God is !!!!!

Keewon
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Re: Gods All The Way Down

Post by Keewon » Sun Oct 27, 2019 7:57 pm

I remember being mesmerized by this idea as a teenager in Seminary. The big idea in Brigham Young's day was that the human "seed" was of divine origin- humans weren't just made in God's image, but God was Adam's physical father; and thus were worlds created and seeded.

This has been blown apart by science, as with most everything else. For instance, one result of the mapping of the human genome is the finding that human DNA is around 96% identical to the DNA of chimpanzees. To put it in perspective, this is about 10 times closer than the DNA of rats and mice. Doesn't fit the BY framework very well, but one more piece of the puzzle for evolution.

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Re: Gods All The Way Down

Post by misterfake371 » Tue Nov 05, 2019 7:48 pm

post deleted
Last edited by misterfake371 on Tue Nov 05, 2019 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep His commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. Ecclesiastes 12:13

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Re: Gods All The Way Down

Post by misterfake371 » Tue Nov 05, 2019 7:50 pm

Palerider wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:00 pm

I'm not defending the Mormon way of defining the relationship between God and man. I'm just curious how you might reconcile this?
I'll have to google "fortunate fall."

In a sense, I think we are children of God, and I'm aware of the Bible verses that call us children of God. But I think "creations of God" better describes our relationship to God than "children of God" does. Children grow up to be like their parents. We will never grow up to be like God, no matter how holy we are. We will never be uncreated creators. There is only one uncreated Creator, and that's God, the Trinity.

A God, a God, we have a God, and there cannot be anymore God!

God created Adam and Eve, he didn't give birth to them. I don't think we are literal spirit children of God. When I was a believing LatterDay Saint, and into deep doctrine, I thought Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother (or Heavenly Wife # 43) had some kinda Holy Spirit-Sex and that's where spirit babies come from. In fact, I think I even remember reading a quote by some LDS leader from the 1800's about that. I don't believe that anymore.

Of course, the terms "creation of God" and "children of God" are both metaphors for some higher truth/deeper reality that we can't fully understand or articulate.
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep His commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. Ecclesiastes 12:13

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