Atlantis More Probable Than the Nephites - Seriously

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Apologeticsislying
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Atlantis More Probable Than the Nephites - Seriously

Post by Apologeticsislying » Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:17 pm

I just watched a 2 hour presentation of Graham Hancock on his newest book "America Before," which is on You Tube and a fabulous presentation with outstanding graphics, clear and systematic, logical, scientific explanation for the end of the last ice age 11,000 B.C. which may very well have to do with the destruction of Atlantis. It is no longer a voo doo idiotic subject, but one that has the ring of authenticity now that science is finally catching up with Plato and the ancient Egyptians who told about Atlantis in the Edfu texts from ancient Egypt 3,000 B.C.

Hancock's trilogy, "The Fingerprints of the Gods, (1995) "The Magicians of the Gods,"(2015) and "American Before," (2019) has over 2,000 pages of well reasoned, tight logical analysis, that is now gaining actual real on the ground geological, historical, archaeological, Scientific with literal DNA evidence now, and astronomical evidence on his claim of a lost civilization. When I was a kid, NO WAY. Now in just 40 short years everything is being overturned topsy turvy, and the probablility of Atlantis has now grown to serious. It is amazing to see this exciting new evidence and philosophical as well as historical reality coming alive right in front of our eyes.

The Nephites? Virtually nothing yet. No DNA, no archaeology, no history, no actual or even meaningful philosophical basis, no geological, no astronomical evidence yet of any kind to even up a quite low probability. Conclusion, tentative. Atlantis seriously has a far greater probability of being real than the Book of Mormon Lamanites or Nephites.

There is a 2 hour You Tube program Graham Hancock, America Before that is quite overwhelming and stunning with the new scientific evidences for a world wide flood and why that legend is quite realistic. You must watch this stunning very well done program. I am half way through his book "The Magicians of the Gods," which is about Goebekli Tepi and the monumental stone work done there and its astronomical alignments and its meaning. It is very impressive.

The thing I am enjoying very much about Hancock is he is not voo doo, New Age stupid like so much crap out there. He is quite realistic, sticking close with probability and using proper and peer review science materials, valid archaeological, geological and DNA evidences for his claims. He appears to be vastly more rock solid than any research of the Mormon apologetic field has been over the last 50 years, and has much more actual on the ground evidence for his proposal. I used to think he was a sensationalist. He isn't. Watch his presentation and see, it's an eye opener and very exciting times for the next 20 years of research into this fascinating theme. And his appearances with Randall Carlsen on the Joe Rogan Show are every bit as good, informative, and fun to watch also.
The same energy that emerges from the fountain of eternity into time, is the Holy Grail at the center of the universe of the inexhaustible vitality in each of our hearts. The Holy Grail, like the Kingdom of God, is within. -Joseph Campbell-

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Red Ryder
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Re: Atlantis More Probable Than the Nephites - Seriously

Post by Red Ryder » Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:16 pm

I listened to that JRE and was fascinated by his work with psychedelics. I also enjoyed listening to his story about the Sphinx and the weather and water patterns that questioned the age.

I’ll have to look at the Atlantis stuff and watch the YouTube your talking about.

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Apologeticsislying
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Re: Atlantis More Probable Than the Nephites - Seriously

Post by Apologeticsislying » Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:35 pm

His two newest books, "The Magicians of the Gods," and "America Before" are without doubt the most powerful books he has written as far as stone sober, realistic detective work on just what the hell went on in ancient history. We HAVE been lied to, and nowadays its looking deliberate as obfuscation and suppression from the scientists themselves. So much for being scientific and letting evidence speak.... like religion, science has gone all out for the mere image instead of discovering the truth with evidence. It's actually very scary because we have the power to DO something about the coming catastrophe, but we lack the will power to. We shall have to rewrite the books they cry. So what? rewrite the f*cking things then, do you want truth or not? Is science no longer worked through with evidence and probability no longer interesting in being real by assessing ALL the available evidence both pro and con?! What the hell man???
The same energy that emerges from the fountain of eternity into time, is the Holy Grail at the center of the universe of the inexhaustible vitality in each of our hearts. The Holy Grail, like the Kingdom of God, is within. -Joseph Campbell-

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moksha
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Re: Atlantis More Probable Than the Nephites - Seriously

Post by moksha » Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:08 am

The idea of a city being built at the bottom of the Mediterranean trench, where the temperature was warmer before the current interglaciation period, is intriguing. Then the glaciers start to melt and the Atlanteans are forced to move. Should they head to the Riviera or follow the Nile stream?
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

Apologeticsislying
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Re: Atlantis More Probable Than the Nephites - Seriously

Post by Apologeticsislying » Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:05 pm

moksha wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:08 am
The idea of a city being built at the bottom of the Mediterranean trench, where the temperature was warmer before the current interglaciation period, is intriguing. Then the glaciers start to melt and the Atlanteans are forced to move. Should they head to the Riviera or follow the Nile stream?
Well, that depends on where the pointers of the Liahona point doesn't it? :D
The same energy that emerges from the fountain of eternity into time, is the Holy Grail at the center of the universe of the inexhaustible vitality in each of our hearts. The Holy Grail, like the Kingdom of God, is within. -Joseph Campbell-

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Hagoth
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Re: Atlantis More Probable Than the Nephites - Seriously

Post by Hagoth » Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:03 pm

I dunno guys, I'm about a half hour into America Before and I already feel like I'm getting the ol' apologist routine of drawing lines through unrelated points, and a couple of downright contradictions. I was going to mention a couple, but I don't want to start a debate. I'll keep watching and I hope there will be some really brain-slapping stuff. I am totally on board with things like the possibility of the sphinx being much older than the pyramids, and pushing the dates of human intelligence back further, but there are a lot of ways to read between the lines and, like everything else, those swing from ultraconservative to ultraliberal. That said, I would definitely give the Atlantans an edge over the Nephites, assuming we leave plenty of room for the mythologizing of historical events.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Hagoth
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Re: Atlantis More Probable Than the Nephites - Seriously

Post by Hagoth » Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:10 pm

2/3 of the way through. He brings up some really fascinating sites and does a great job of summarizing their significance. The stuff about the maps is fascinating and I would like to look into it more. I would, however, just like to point out how often he says things like "I'm certain we'd see that (whatever he's talking about) goes back thousands of years before that, if the archaeology were done." A standard BoM apologetic.

He talks about sacred archaeological "dogmas" that might be more like retroactive rewording of the idea that people made certain assumptions base on the science at hand, until they had better evidence. For example, when he says it was against the dogma to look for anything older than Clovis he is misstating the facts. Investigators were constantly putting forth evidence for what they believed to be pre-Clovis settlements. Some of it turned out to be right but most was wrong. Archaeologists didn't jump on board until there was good science to support the claims. He also seems to imply that before he came along no one believed that civilization arose anywhere outside of Mesopotamia, but he's reaching back a century to make that claim.

I think the biggest headscratcher I have so far is why he thinks there needs to be a connection between ancient civilizations all over the world being so keenly interested in the movements of the sun and moon, and placing markers to track them. A better question would be why in the world wouldn't they do that, considering how important seasonal changes were to their lifeways. Same for people piling dirt into geometric shapes and aligning them with the solstices and equinoxes. He implies that this requires extremely complex astronomy and mathematics, but it can all be done with sticks, string, shadows, and patient observation. More interesting to me are the apparent relationships between North American sights that are far apart from each other, and have what looks like the results of geometric calculations, and their possible resemblance to South American sites. I have no doubt that people have been moving around sharing ideas for a long, long time, and that they have been capable of complex thinking for tens of thousands of years. We should't be shocked that they could do clever things.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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RubinHighlander
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Re: Atlantis More Probable Than the Nephites - Seriously

Post by RubinHighlander » Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:08 am

Hagoth wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:10 pm
I have no doubt that people have been moving around sharing ideas for a long, long time, and that they have been capable of complex thinking for tens of thousands of years. We should't be shocked that they could do clever things.
This sums it up for me. I don't like those that claim mysterious knowledge of old things beyond the normal realm of science and available facts. It's that old temptation of filling the gaps. I'd rather these guys just be more honest and say, "Look, there might be some connections here, the possibilities are exciting, but we just don't know." It's like that movie A Beautiful Mind, where connections can be made all over the place and some percentage will look quite credible. Problem is, statistically when you get down to the actual connections, you are left with the randomness of probability.

Humans have had big brains for a long time now and we've tried to pick apart some of the accomplishments of those ancient civilizations. We have seen some success in this research, like how the Easter Island heads got carved and put into place. Also, how Stonehenge was built with ancient tools and methods that are not rocket science, but still certainly impressive.

I take these claims of ancient super advanced civilizations with a grain of salt or two. I love the archaeology! I just don't like too much of the conclusiveness and additional fluff; that insatiable need to fill the gaps.
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Hagoth
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Re: Atlantis More Probable Than the Nephites - Seriously

Post by Hagoth » Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:03 am

I really enjoyed Hancock's presentation about the likelihood of a comet strike causing he Younger Dryas cold snap. There are some serious problems with some of his implications, but the evidence that there was such an event seems pretty compelling. The main reason Hancock spent over a third of his presentation talking about it, however, was for reasons that are very like Book of Mormon apologetics. He needs a villain to explain why there is no evidence to support his claims. He insists that a huge, powerful, and highly advanced civilization covered the North America tens of thousands of years ago. Where's the evidence? Dang, it got erased.

His two points of archaeological evidence were a site that is purported to be 50,000 years old, for which he presents no evidence but tells us that he was convinced, and a 130,000 year old site where mastodon bones were found that have been cracked open, as if someone was extracting their marrow. Even if this turns out to actually be human habitation (which would be really cool!), it is not evidence of his Atlantis civilization. A big part of Hancock's presentation was talking about how harshly people are treated when they present these kinds of hypotheses and he uses this as an example, but he doesn't tell you that no human remains or any other evidence of human occupation that you would expect if people were there. People are justly skeptical. All radical new hypotheses are treated with skepticism. Some because they are threatening to someone else's long hild ideas, sure, but they also need to demonstrate sufficient explanatory power. It's not a good guys/bad guys thing.

Hanckock presents the Piri Reis map as unquestioningly showing the ice-free contours of Antarctica, based on the opinion of a civil engineer who already had a theory along the lines of Hancock's, but if you spend a few minutes with the map you will see that it appears to be a pretty good match for the current coastline of South America. For some reason Hancock doesn't mention that it is not drawn as a separate land mass at all, but is contiguous with the rest of South America, and if you chop it off from the rest of the continent the map doesn't make any sense. The fact that it flares out at the bottom is what gives the impression that it could be the Antarctic coastline. Hancock makes a big deal of the fact that the map is drawn as a Mercator projection. I don't know about that, but if so I think it hurts his case. If you weren't aware of Antarctica when you were drawing the map, and you thought Tierra Del Fuego was the bottom of the world, you would have South America flaring out exactly like this in a Mercator projection, just as Greenland does at the other pole.

What I'm saying is that there is no conspiracy against Hancock and his hypotheses, there is healthy skepticism based on the lack of evidence and obvious cherry picking. Nothing would delight an archaeologist more than to find something that changes the entire picture of human history (and notice how Hancock consistently tries to convince you that it is not him, but the archaeologists who are not real scientists). That's why caution is so important. People like Hancock thrive on framing themselves as martyrs, but so does everyone else who makes wild, unfalsifiable claims. You should EXPECT to be doubted and pushed back against until you have a body of evidence that is genuinely convincing. That's just how it works.

This stuff is a lot of fun and I really enjoy it. Part of me really, really hopes it's all true. BUT I have been burned by this kind of thinking before and I think it's prudent to exercise caution.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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