This is for encouragement, ideas, and support for people going through a faith transition no matter where you hope to end up. This is also the place to laugh, cry, and love together.
RubinHighlander wrote: ↑Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:12 pm
I'm going to plus one on the bandaid rip!
But that being said, I only did the bandaid rip with my local leaders. Our effort to fade out was putting us on the project list and we and our one kid at home were being harassed for interviews and callings, etc. After I wrote the email and sent it off, making it clear we would not be harassed anymore, the word from the local leaders trickled out pretty quickly and there was very little contact. Then we had extended family to grapple with over time and a couple of years later our names removed off the books. It worked out very well for us that way.
Oh how sweet the freedom was! Take those Sundays and go out into the great outdoors and enjoy your life! We've found so many wonderful and fulfilling things to use that time for. We never dreamed life could so amazing and incredible without the LDS corp BS hanging over us and making us feel guilty all the time. Not to mention the freedom to wear what we want, drink what we want, and so many other things, all with a 10% pay raise. It honestly feels like we've been richly blessed by the universe, as a way to congratulate us for escaping from a cultic tribalistic corrupt corporation that was controlling our lives.
Wonderment wrote: ↑Thu Dec 05, 2019 3:16 am
To add: Just my experience, but when they ask specific questions like, "When is your son going to be baptized? We want to make sure to attend"....... etc., just give a very nondescript response like, "We'll be sure to keep in touch", and so forth.
Ya, I've been thinking of this too. It just... It just feels like a cop out... I wish we could all just be ourselves and say how we feel without everyone having such a hard time with it.
It's funny, well, I think it's funny, my seven year old absolutely doesn't want to be baptized. As recently as a few months ago, I was actually trying to nudge him in that direction. But when I ask him about it, he just flat out says, "no, I don't want to be baptized, and I don't like church"
Just as a suggestion, you could tell them very truthfully, "Our son doesn't want to be baptized, so we're going to honor his wishes. The church believes he's old enough to reason, so he reasons that he doesn't want to go through that." After that, the TBM family members are kind of stuck for a reply, so hopefully, they will just drop it.
I agree with you, I wish we could all just be ourselves and speak our feelings. -- Wndr.
Wonderment wrote: ↑Thu Dec 05, 2019 3:16 am
To add: Just my experience, but when they ask specific questions like, "When is your son going to be baptized? We want to make sure to attend"....... etc., just give a very nondescript response like, "We'll be sure to keep in touch", and so forth.
Ya, I've been thinking of this too. It just... It just feels like a cop out... I wish we could all just be ourselves and say how we feel without everyone having such a hard time with it.
It's funny, well, I think it's funny, my seven year old absolutely doesn't want to be baptized. As recently as a few months ago, I was actually trying to nudge him in that direction. But when I ask him about it, he just flat out says, "no, I don't want to be baptized, and I don't like church"
Just as a suggestion, you could tell them very truthfully, "Our son doesn't want to be baptized, so we're going to honor his wishes. The church believes he's old enough to reason, so he reasons that he doesn't want to go through that." After that, the TBM family members are kind of stuck for a reply, so hopefully, they will just drop it.
I agree with you, I wish we could all just be ourselves and speak our feelings. -- Wndr.
I really like the idea here, because it tells the truth very simply. Statements like the church no longer works for our family, or the truth that the 8 year old doesn’t want to be baptized or the twelve year old isn’t being ordained a deacon, or the 18 year old is not going on a mission, or I won’t be attending the temple portion of the wedding, but with no explanation usually work. It conveys that you are not participating, but gives them nothing they can argue with. And if they still try to argue, you just repeat.
It is when you try to justify with a reason that they will argue with your reason. “I have stopped believing the truth claims of Mormonism,” but not mentioning what beliefs you no longer believe gives them less to argue with than “I no longer believe JS was a prophet because of polygamy.” Tell them the reason and they will try to prove polygamy really came from God.
General rule of don’t give them any ammo to shoot you with.
Wonderment wrote: ↑Thu Dec 05, 2019 3:28 pm
Just as a suggestion, you could tell them very truthfully, "Our son doesn't want to be baptized, so we're going to honor his wishes. The church believes he's old enough to reason, so he reasons that he doesn't want to go through that." After that, the TBM family members are kind of stuck for a reply, so hopefully, they will just drop it.
A potential caution on this, depending on the family. This explanation may cause believers to exert pressure on the 8 yo, try to convince the 8 yo to want to be baptized. That may be a tough thing for an 8 yo to deal with.
I would tend to say less than this and give external people an explanation that places the responsibility on me. I can deal with and deflect the concerns. When they're older, it's a different story. My 26 yo daughter would probably tell them to f-* off (without the masking). At least that's what she'd tell me.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")
Jeffret wrote: ↑Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:11 am
I may be the minority on this, but I still see no reason extended family needs to be told.
Did you ever have a situation where your mother called you and asked, "Oh, little Jeffret is trying 8 next month. When is his baptism? We want to be there."
AZ Flyer nice to see you post again!
I’m in a similar situation of trying to get out of this church! Like you, its the kids that are making it decision time! (When I was single it was easy to hide my inactivity). I just don’t want to raised my kids in the church!
"If your children are taught untruths on evolution in the public schools or even in our Church schools, provide them with a copy of President Joseph Fielding Smith's excellent rebuttal in his book Man, His Origin and Destiny."
Wonderment wrote: ↑Thu Dec 05, 2019 3:28 pm
Just as a suggestion, you could tell them very truthfully, "Our son doesn't want to be baptized, so we're going to honor his wishes. The church believes he's old enough to reason, so he reasons that he doesn't want to go through that." After that, the TBM family members are kind of stuck for a reply, so hopefully, they will just drop it.
A potential caution on this, depending on the family. This explanation may cause believers to exert pressure on the 8 yo, try to convince the 8 yo to want to be baptized. That may be a tough thing for an 8 yo to deal with.
I would tend to say less than this and give external people an explanation that places the responsibility on me. I can deal with and deflect the concerns. When they're older, it's a different story. My 26 yo daughter would probably tell them to f-* off (without the masking). At least that's what she'd tell me.
We felt the same way. When you my youngest was approaching turning twelve and getting the priesthood, he came to me and said he didn’t want it. Rather than have additional pressure put on him by family and ward members, I simply told everyone that I wouldn’t allow him to get it. I didn’t give two sh*ts what people thought. My wife was on board with it and went along because it really was his decision, not mine. Fortunately, she is fiercely protective of our kids and puts them first over the church.
Wonderment wrote: ↑Thu Dec 05, 2019 3:28 pm
Just as a suggestion, you could tell them very truthfully, "Our son doesn't want to be baptized, so we're going to honor his wishes. The church believes he's old enough to reason, so he reasons that he doesn't want to go through that." After that, the TBM family members are kind of stuck for a reply, so hopefully, they will just drop it.
A potential caution on this, depending on the family. This explanation may cause believers to exert pressure on the 8 yo, try to convince the 8 yo to want to be baptized. That may be a tough thing for an 8 yo to deal with.
I would tend to say less than this and give external people an explanation that places the responsibility on me. I can deal with and deflect the concerns. When they're older, it's a different story. My 26 yo daughter would probably tell them to f-* off (without the masking). At least that's what she'd tell me.
We felt the same way. When you my youngest was approaching turning twelve and getting the priesthood, he came to me and said he didn’t want it. Rather than have additional pressure put on him by family and ward members, I simply told everyone that I wouldn’t allow him to get it. I didn’t give two sh*ts what people thought. My wife was on board with it and went along because it really was his decision, not mine. Fortunately, she is fiercely protective of our kids and puts them first over the church.
Yes.-- I didn't mean to imply that the parents should place the burden of the decision on the 8 year old. Certainly they should take responsibility for the decision not to baptize a child. I was actually responding to AZ's wish not to give a vague non-committal answer to family members and to speak up in a more forthright and candid manner. I was trying to assure him that if the parents don't wish the child to go through baptism and the child does not wish to go through baptism, then it is fine to be forthright about the decision to TBM family members. -- Wndr.
I am constantly seeing stuff on Facebook from people talking about how they are "So proud that [their kid] has chosen to be baptized." That really rubs DW the wrong way. These kids are not choosing anything. They are simply giving into the social pressure from their family and church community.
If you want to mess with TBM's minds, you can turn that on its head. Put out a big family/Facebook announcement about how you are "So proud that [kid] has chosen NOT to be baptized." You can follow that up with more about how he is exercising his agency to learn and study so that if he does get baptized, he will fully understand the gospel before he commits to it.
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams
AZF it is good to see an update from you. It sounds like you have navigated this the best for your situation. Each of us here has different complicating factors that weigh in the decision to continue in quiet active unbelief, or slow fade on your terms (as much as possible), or the abrupt bandaid rip.
It is good to see the why and how on each of your situations. We have all likely done one of those three with individuals in our lives. Some we have hidden our faith journey from, others we have started signaling (change in opinion, change in practice), and others we may have drawn clear boundaries of signals.
Sometimes it is tempting to see the lives life of others who have taken a different path and covet the green grass of their perceived outcomes. It is equally appealing to see the fallout from the proverbial voice of warning as others have had less than ideal outcomes as their loved ones and communities react to their choices.
I live all the advice from this page. There is much wisdom in this crowd. I live the YOLO attitude of living your life on your terms. I also have learned that none of us gets to choose the response from others. Sadly, relationships do change. Some relationships change for the worse, others for the better, some are even terminated completely when family and friends determine they don't want an apostate in their life.
It is impossible to predict the response of others or the eventual outcome of any of our decisions. I suppose that is one of the reasons the space is so necessary and painful for all of us. The stakes are high. Marriages, inheritances, and inclusion all hang in the balance of our decisions.
I wish you all the best as you navigate these perilous waters. Especially during the holidays when family and friends often gather to catch up and so many religious traditions that can be triggering for ex-TBM's like us.
wtfluff wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:11 pm
I've done pretty much everything wrong when it comes to this truth awakening thing, so take this for what it's worth...
wtfluff wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:11 pm
I've done pretty much everything wrong when it comes to this truth awakening thing, so take this for what it's worth...
I'm pretty sure I could challenge this claim...
Some times, depending on your relative, there is no right way, just bad and worse. You just have to decide if you are willing to live your whole life for the other person or not, and then do the best you know how. Ultimately, you are not responsible for the outcome if they decide they don’t want an apostate in their life. Does your spouse or do your parents love you, or do they love their ticket to the CK, or their posterity in the CK. If it is that kind of love, then have you really lost something, or only the illusion of something? On the other hand, Some times, it is just not worth it to break grandma’s heart when she will be dead in five years anyway. Sometimes it is even worth it to keep up the pretense so your parents don’t disown you and cut you out of the will, or your spouse doesn’t divorce you and bad mouth you to your kids.
You are the person who knows your relative best. Which is why you can listen to the outcomes other people have as you think about the best solution for you. But remember, your situation is different and you are the only one who can decide what is best for you.
And after the fact, it doesn’t do any good beating yourself up for the bad way your relative reacted. Their reaction is on them.
wtfluff wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:11 pm
I've done pretty much everything wrong when it comes to this truth awakening thing, so take this for what it's worth...
wtfluff wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:11 pm
I've done pretty much everything wrong when it comes to this truth awakening thing, so take this for what it's worth...
I'm pretty sure I could challenge this claim...
Challenge? Meh.
We can both do everything wrong, at the same time, and... No-one wins.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus
wtfluff wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:11 pm
I've done pretty much everything wrong when it comes to this truth awakening thing, so take this for what it's worth...
