Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

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blazerb
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by blazerb » Sat Dec 21, 2019 8:57 pm

Random wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 5:56 pm
blazerb wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 3:57 pm
I never had to choose between tithing and rent or food.
There was more than once when I paid tithing instead of bills or food.
I am so sorry. The men who manipulated you were wrong.

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Palerider
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by Palerider » Sat Dec 21, 2019 9:55 pm

Random wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 6:08 pm
Brent wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:01 am
Better to ask them to read Mormon Chapter 8 with you.
etc.
I would think that any true believer in the Book of Mormon, if they know what it says, would be shaking in their boots.
Yeah, that's a big "IF".

I think the average member reads very little in the BoM and remembers even less. BoM reading is highly promulgated and seldom done in the church.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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Random
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by Random » Sat Dec 21, 2019 11:04 pm

I wanted to embed this video, but don't know how (and couldn't find out how).

https://youtu.be/6xwaM95gptg
Pay Your Tithing - Obey Authority

Why it's so important to pay tithing.
If everyone saw this video and understood about the 100B, they might think twice before paying more money to the Corp instead of directly to the poor (or to those who really help the poor).
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

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Random
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by Random » Sat Dec 21, 2019 11:10 pm

Palerider wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 9:55 pm
Yeah, that's a big "IF".
Sadly, I don't think there are many LDS who honestly and sincerely believe what the Book of Mormon says about the important things. Only if it agrees with the official narrative. Image

I think the average member reads very little in the BoM and remembers even less. BoM reading is highly promulgated and seldom done in the church.
I thought it was widely read because I read it often and made sure my children knew what it said. It was a surprise to me to find out my 8 year old daughter knew more about it than some of her teachers, and by the time she was 12, she was bored out of her skull because her teachers' knowledge of the book was on the level of infant in comparison to hers (and her sister's).
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

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Hagoth
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by Hagoth » Sun Dec 22, 2019 9:43 am

Random wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 5:41 pm
blazerb wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 8:17 pm
They want to keep their operation functioning even if there are very few tithe-paying members keeping the temples open.
It definitely looks like they are preparing for the time when "the church may [need to] stand independent above all other creatures beneath the celestial world".

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 78:14)
I have always said that the real goal of the church is to be able to continue to exist as a strong financial institution regardless of how many paying members it has. The church will continue to be a self-sustaining Fortune 500 level corporation even if everyone abandons ship (which will never happen). This could continue until eventually enough checks and balances have eroded away to allow a corrupt Corporate Sole (or a handful of mutually-conniving agents) to wiggle his way to the top and proclaim himself the richest man on earth.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

Reuben
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by Reuben » Sun Dec 22, 2019 10:48 am

Hagoth wrote:
Sun Dec 22, 2019 9:43 am
Random wrote:
Sat Dec 21, 2019 5:41 pm
blazerb wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 8:17 pm
They want to keep their operation functioning even if there are very few tithe-paying members keeping the temples open.
It definitely looks like they are preparing for the time when "the church may [need to] stand independent above all other creatures beneath the celestial world".

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 78:14)
I have always said that the real goal of the church is to be able to continue to exist as a strong financial institution regardless of how many paying members it has. The church will continue to be a self-sustaining Fortune 500 level corporation even if everyone abandons ship (which will never happen). This could continue until eventually enough checks and balances have eroded away to allow a corrupt Corporate Sole (or a handful of mutually-conniving agents) to wiggle his way to the top and proclaim himself the richest man on earth.
He would still be hailed as a prophet.

FWIW, as a believer, I totally would have interpreted D&C 78:14 as applying to the Millennium, not any time before. Not sure how the top brass think of things like that.
You were born to trust, not fear. It is your birthright.

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Sheamus Moore
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by Sheamus Moore » Sun Dec 22, 2019 11:41 am

Does the Presiding Bishopric succeed in making their case? https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.or ... iZaXmo8Qo4

“The real wealth of the Church is not in its possessions, it’s in the Church members...” Dean Davies

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FiveFingerMnemonic
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Sun Dec 22, 2019 11:48 am

Sheamus Moore wrote:Does the Presiding Bishopric succeed in making their case? https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.or ... iZaXmo8Qo4

“The real wealth of the Church is not in its possessions, it’s in the Church members...” Dean Davies

Image
So we are like the human batteries in the Matrix right? I say that as my in-laws leave for another mission providing free labor and transportation.

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Random
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by Random » Sun Dec 22, 2019 12:54 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Sun Dec 22, 2019 9:43 am
I have always said that the real goal of the church is to be able to continue to exist as a strong financial institution regardless of how many paying members it has.
Of that, I have no doubt.




I've come across some interesting scriptures today. As I believe scriptures, it means something to me in regards to the 100B. But how many of the believing LDS will finally wake up to the fact that their own scriptures are talking about them? And I don't say this to point fingers, because I already apply those scriptures to myself.
The LORD will enter into judgment with the ancients of his people, and the princes thereof: for ye have eaten up the vineyard; the spoil of the poor is in your houses.

What mean ye that ye beat my people to pieces, and grind the faces of the poor? saith the Lord GOD of hosts.

Isaiah 3:14-15
2 Ne 13:14-15
And then, O ye Gentiles, how can ye stand before the power of God, except ye shall repent and turn from your evil ways?

Know ye not that ye are in the hands of God? Know ye not that he hath all power, and at his great command the earth shall be rolled together as a scroll?

Therefore, repent ye, and humble yourselves before him, lest he shall come out in justice against you—lest a remnant of the seed of Jacob shall go forth among you as a lion, and tear you in pieces, and there is none to deliver.

Mormon 5:22 - 24
And the blood of that great and abominable church, which is the whore of all the earth, shall turn upon their own heads; for they shall war among themselves, and the sword of their own hands shall fall upon their own heads, and they shall be drunken with their own blood.

1 Nephi 22:13
16 They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol, which waxeth old and shall perish in Babylon, even Babylon the great, which shall fall.

Doctrine and Covenants Section 1:16
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

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Random
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by Random » Sun Dec 22, 2019 12:57 pm

I say the above because of what someone posted in another place that I read today:

https://latterdaysaintmag.com/article-1-14590-2/
What stands out to me is something found in the middle of the second paragraph in that article:
"The malnutrition rate here (74%) was the highest we recorded during our recent work in the Philippines. Nevertheless, according to the stake president, the percentage of tithing worthy members is nearly 70%, much higher than the average ward in the Church. This is a pattern we find often in our work."

The pattern they're seeing is that the most desperately poor people are the most likely to pay tithing. I feel like these people are the most desperate, the most willing to believe promises of divine help in return for faithfulness. I feel like the 100 billion is built on the backs of these kind of people who are desperately seeking help but instead giving what little they have to fatten up already obese people. It's sickening.
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

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Just This Guy
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by Just This Guy » Sun Dec 22, 2019 4:28 pm

SL Trib detailing some stuff on how the church his it's money.

A few interesting tidbits included fudging federal accounting laws including the Patriot Act.

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2019/12 ... w-how-lds/

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"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

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wtfluff
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by wtfluff » Sun Dec 22, 2019 4:52 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Sun Dec 22, 2019 9:43 am
I have always said that the real goal of the church is to be able to continue to exist as a strong financial institution regardless of how many paying members it has. The church will continue to be a self-sustaining Fortune 500 level corporation even if everyone abandons ship (which will never happen). This could continue until eventually enough checks and balances have eroded away to allow a corrupt Corporate Sole (or a handful of mutually-conniving agents) to wiggle his way to the top and proclaim himself the richest man on earth.
This is old, but even more relevant now that we know of 100 million +

Image
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

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EternityIsNow
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by EternityIsNow » Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:39 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Sun Dec 22, 2019 4:52 pm
This is old, but even more relevant now that we know of 100 million +
I love that JFS quote, if the members had a real voice, I wonder what they would say about how to use the funds in light of his statement.

Members will think this is divine blessing of their funds. When in reality it is just regular re-investment during the longest bull run in market history. Not even an unusual rate of return, just compounded for a long time. I doubt the brethren planned to accumulate this much wealth, it just happened. I know investors who have made boatloads of money the last two decades, who knew where to put it. Yes, to us $100B is a giant sum of money, but to a major corporation, it is business as usual.

I think this WILL change the game significantly, just not immediately. Things like this need to simmer. The church probably does not know what to do right now, and neither do its detractors. Change due to the IRS complaint is not likely, but it created a tiny glimmer of transparency, finally. This will play out for a long time, arguments over money cause many divorces. I wonder if the brethren are in agreement about what to do with a pot of gold?

It is entirely possible the primary fear of the top dogs at the church is that the rest of the church leadership knows how wealthy they are. Will they all fall in line forever, knowing there are almost limitless possibilities now? Or will they just consider this their own safety net, a very fat pension fund?

One thing is for sure, the church can no longer pretend it is not wealthy, or pretend it is in any way disadvantaged. Billionaires don't usually get away with complaining about how hard their life is. And they can't complain about being outsiders to the establishment, they get whatever they want. I do think this is a game changer, but in an unpredictable way. The church just changed from an underdog to an overlord. This will take time to register in the minds of the members.

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Just This Guy
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by Just This Guy » Mon Dec 23, 2019 7:29 am

It is interesting to watch how the church's story changes in real time.

[*]The church used to proudly proclaim that they had no paid clergy. Proof comes out that upper leadership is in fact paid. Instead of acknowledging it, they simply stop making the claim.
[*]A church of healing has become "Have faith not to be healed" when people start fact checking their stories.
[*]Record growth has become 'we will always be small' when the annual numbers stat to look bleak.
[*]Any thing covered in the essays

It will be interesting to watch the church's story change with regard to tithing. It will change. The question is how. They have been proven wrong now, so their MO is to reframe their story to match the current PR needs.

Also wonder how their annual accounting report in conference will change.
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

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Fifi de la Vergne
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by Fifi de la Vergne » Mon Dec 23, 2019 9:16 am

Just This Guy wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2019 7:29 am
Also wonder how their annual accounting report in conference will change.
I was fantasizing about taking a group of NOMs and exmos to the Conference Center to loudly boo and heckle when the auditor gives his report next April and then . . . I realized that if they're smart (not a given) they will omit this part of the proceedings, or at the very least change up the verbiage/format.
Joy is the emotional expression of the courageous Yes to one's own true being.

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Hagoth
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by Hagoth » Mon Dec 23, 2019 9:56 am

I can't remember where I saw a quote from a GA who observed that malnutrition I is increasing among African Saints but also is the amount of tithing they are paying to be worthy of those shiny new temples that ate being dangled in front of them. He seemed to think this was a good thing, something to shame us well-fed lesser tithe payers. I'll try to find the quote.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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MoPag
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by MoPag » Mon Dec 23, 2019 9:57 am

Fifi de la Vergne wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2019 9:16 am
Just This Guy wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2019 7:29 am
Also wonder how their annual accounting report in conference will change.
I was fantasizing about taking a group of NOMs and exmos to the Conference Center to loudly boo and heckle when the auditor gives his report next April and then . . . I realized that if they're smart (not a given) they will omit this part of the proceedings, or at the very least change up the verbiage/format.
This would be so fun!!!!! :D :D :twisted:
...walked eye-deep in hell
believing in old men’s lies...--Ezra Pound

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Just This Guy
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by Just This Guy » Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:39 am

I have fantasized about being able to hack into the audio system during conference. That way you could inject your own audio whenever you want. Then take it a step further and have a system that will give them a electric shock anytime you want.

Someone makes a sexist remark during conference, call them out on it.
People vote opposed, call attention to their courage.
Use a logical fallacy, get call out on it and a shock.
Miss-represent a scripture? bizzzzzt
Miracle story wit a downer ending? bizzzzzt.

It would defiantly make conference a lot more interesting to watch. I would vote to put Radio Free Mormon and Sam Young on the shocker button.
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

Spicy McHaggis
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by Spicy McHaggis » Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:45 pm

I was just reminded on something. Back in 2008 or 2009, when the US economy was collapsing, the Ensign published a story told by TSM. He spoke of an older single man who was basically living in abject poverty. This older man lived in a shack, had no transportation, had one set of clothing, etc. The story goes on the say the old man paid his tithing faithfully, never missing a month of paying tithing. It was at this point I expected the story to say that it would have been fine if the man stopped paying his tithing so he could afford to eat healthier or something along those lines. I expected the point of the story to be that if you're really struggling with finances that perhaps you skip on paying tithing until your finances improve.

I was wrong, TSM goes on to say the old man had such great faith that he didn't pay 10% tithing. He paid 20% tithing. Yep, the moral of the story during the middle of the financial crisis was that if you really have faith, you pay 20%.

I'm still huggin' pissed.

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Hagoth
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Re: Whistle Blower Files IRS Complaint

Post by Hagoth » Tue Dec 24, 2019 7:56 am

Remember that story about when Jesus walked past the money changers on his way to pay tithing to the Sadducees and felt proud that they had managed to turn the temple into a thriving business so they could stockpile plenty of funds for him when he returns someday?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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