TBM's and LGT

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deacon blues
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TBM's and LGT

Post by deacon blues » Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:21 am

The "Heartlanders at it again" thread got me thinking about how many TBM's are actually even aware the Limited Geography Theory- LGT. I would expect most are unaware of it. A few may think about it, and some may even take it seriously, while others prefer John Sorenson and other BYU profs. take on things. How could one approach a discussion about LGT with a TBM? Could it be brought up in a Sunday School lesson without being seen as an attempt to distract the class? I would hope so. It is a serious topic.
Last edited by deacon blues on Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Just This Guy
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Re: TBM's and LGT

Post by Just This Guy » Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:51 am

My impression is that most TBMs think the BOM took place somewhere in the region of Central America and norther South America. The "narrow neck of land" being Panama. Of course, there are plenty of problems with that, but they don't want to see that.

Maybe a simply "Where do you think the Land of Nephi was?" could be enough to open up a conversation.
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alas
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Re: TBM's and LGT

Post by alas » Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:50 am

deacon blues wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:21 am
The "Heartlanders at it again" thread got me thinking about how many TBM's are actually even aware the Limited Geography Theory- LGT. I would expect most are unaware of it. A few may think about it, and some may even take it seriously, while others prefer John Sorenson and other BYU profs. take on things. How could one approach a discussion about LGT with a TBM? Could it be brought up in a Sunday School lesson without being seen as an attempt to distract the class? I would hope so. It is a serious topic.
The church came out with a statement a while back saying the church takes no official stand on the various theories about where the BoM took place, so please don’t waste time discussing it in Sunday School.

Gatorbait
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Re: TBM's and LGT

Post by Gatorbait » Fri Jan 24, 2020 6:37 am

Not to make an assumption here, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but most of us feel that believing that the BofM is true is a ridiculous approach. First of all, it's been edited a gazillion times. The LDS apologists ignore items that are so far fetched, only an unlearned person person would believe it.

1. The battles. There are records of battles in the BofM that took place where fifteen thousand soldiers were killed in one battle. Think of that number, then times it by three, and you get the total killed in a three day battle- and this is not counting the injured mind you- killed is the word used, and you get an amount of dead bodies that would be decaying away for years and years. Where is the evidence of this sort of battle anywhere in South, Central or North America? We find million year old fossilized dinosaur bones, but no swords, shields, helmets, breast-plates and all sorts of battle gear from the Nephites. Why is that? In the Indian battles in North America, the Indians used any guns, powder, swords, or anything else they could get their hands on to even the playing field against encroaching settlers and soldiers. Why do the Lamanites always go back to being naked in the battles? Were they that stupid? If they were so stupid, how'd they win the battles and wipe out all of the Nephites?

2. Golden plates. Come on. The plates would have to weigh at least a couple hundred pounds. Pure gold is the description. There is no stone box where they were supposed to be placed in, in New York State. These plates could not be portable, let alone carried around in a pillow case. And where does this much gold come from? There's no evidence that gold was hammered into plates and written on. Reformed Egyptian? What's that? How did someone learn such a language, let alone write it. Ever try to write something in a different language that you are not fluent in? Impossible.

3. Geography. There is no evidence in all of South, Central or North America that there were battles with the dark-skinned Lamanites and white skinned Nephites. No pictures on ancient walls. No artifacts. No anything. Use all the land mass you want and you still come out with zero evidence that these stories written in the BofM are true. They are stories. Stories. That does not mean they are true.
"You're not supposed to be blind with patriotism that you can't face reality. Wrong is wrong, no matter who does it or who says it" Malcolm X

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Red Ryder
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Re: TBM's and LGT

Post by Red Ryder » Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:57 am

Gatorbait wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 6:37 am

1. The battles. There are records of battles in the BofM that took place where fifteen thousand soldiers were killed in one battle. Think of that number, then times it by three, and you get the total killed in a three day battle- and this is not counting the injured mind you- killed is the word used, and you get an amount of dead bodies that would be decaying away for years and years. Where is the evidence of this sort of battle anywhere in South, Central or North America? We find million year old fossilized dinosaur bones, but no swords, shields, helmets, breast-plates and all sorts of battle gear from the Nephites. Why is that?
I had this conversation with my BIL and he rationalized that DNA and human remains disintegrated due to wet weather conditions in North America. I suggested he google Kennewick Man, a skeleton found in Washington, one of the wettest climates in North America.

He ponderized that all the weapons, shields, helmets, etc were scavengered and melted down and recycled into other uses. I asked him to elaborate and he said coins and currency made the most sense.

I then suggested that Joseph Smith made it all up and that made the most sense.

You can’t rationally think through any of this with TBM’s when they have to work backwards from the belief that it’s all true.
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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jfro18
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Re: TBM's and LGT

Post by jfro18 » Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:08 am

Red Ryder wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:57 am

You can’t rationally think through any of this with TBM’s when they have to work backwards from the belief that it’s all true.
That's really the only sentence anyone needs to see.

I've had people message/email/tweet at the site about stuff, and the moment I send supporting evidence they move the goalposts to something else. If you then counter those problems with more sources/etc they move on to something else.

Facts do not matter until the other person has that moment that gives them permission to entertain the church might not be true.

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Corsair
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Re: TBM's and LGT

Post by Corsair » Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:14 am

Gatorbait wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 6:37 am
Not to make an assumption here, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but most of us feel that believing that the BofM is true is a ridiculous approach. First of all, it's been edited a gazillion times. The LDS apologists ignore items that are so far fetched, only an unlearned person person would believe it.
If I brought these up with most of my believing family or ward members I would be angrily denounced. Some of them are still suspicious of me for supporting the wedding of my Lesbian daughter to her girlfriend.

You are right, but it hardly matters that you are right for most of us. The central problem is how these issues are held by the average believer. It's like discussing facts like "Barack Obama was president of the United States from 2008 - 2016 and he was followed by Donald Trump". My conservative friends may try to bring up birth certificates and Kenya for Obama and my liberal friends are annoyed about Trump losing the popular vote. "He's not my president" is their mantra and thus the political divide in the United States grows ever deeper. The occupants of the Oval Office in the last decade are not truly in question, but how they got there remains a subject mired in resentment, depending on your political leanings.

And thus we see the discussions of Book of Mormon historicity and geography. My dear, believing wife has what appears to be an unshakable testimony of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. Our relationship is based on some mutual respect and simply not bringing up topics like this. Hilariously, there is a similar problem that my wife has when speaking with her parents who love the Heartland Model for the Book of Mormon.

I have seen my in-laws spend the day watching videos from Rod Meldrum and similar fans of the Heartland Model. I doubt that my wife and her believing siblings are really concerned about exact locations of the Book of Mormon events. LGT casually works for them, but they do not have a closely held belief for location. But it's amusing to watch them attempt to not engage their excited parents who are certain that Zarahemla and Nauvoo are basically in the same location.

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Re: TBM's and LGT

Post by Hagoth » Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:11 am

Red Ryder wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:57 am
I had this conversation with my BIL and he rationalized that DNA and human remains disintegrated due to wet weather conditions in North America. I suggested he google Kennewick Man, a skeleton found in Washington, one of the wettest climates in North America.
This is a common apologetic claim. It's true that human remains do not preserve well in the rainforests of Mesoamerica, but they do preserve well in the drier parts. Even so, archaeologist have discovered many burials from the less arid areas and sequenced the DNA, done stable isotope analysis, etc, etc, and some of those remains can be dated to over 12,000 years ago. So a pretty good record going back to many millennia before the BoM timeline.
Red Ryder wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:57 am
He ponderized that all the weapons, shields, helmets, etc were scavengered and melted down and recycled into other uses. I asked him to elaborate and he said coins and currency made the most sense.
There is no evidence of any metal smelting in North or Central America until after BoM times, and then only among the Tarascans on the West Coast of Mexico. Mayans did not even use gold in BoM times. North Americans had been cold-hammering pure copper from nuggets long before that, but no metallurgy as we know it.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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2bizE
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Re: TBM's and LGT

Post by 2bizE » Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:17 pm

Gatorbait wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 6:37 am
Not to make an assumption here, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but most of us feel that believing that the BofM is true is a ridiculous approach. First of all, it's been edited a gazillion times. The LDS apologists ignore items that are so far fetched, only an unlearned person person would believe it.

1. The battles. There are records of battles in the BofM that took place where fifteen thousand soldiers were killed in one battle. Think of that number, then times it by three, and you get the total killed in a three day battle- and this is not counting the injured mind you- killed is the word used, and you get an amount of dead bodies that would be decaying away for years and years. Where is the evidence of this sort of battle anywhere in South, Central or North America? We find million year old fossilized dinosaur bones, but no swords, shields, helmets, breast-plates and all sorts of battle gear from the Nephites. Why is that? In the Indian battles in North America, the Indians used any guns, powder, swords, or anything else they could get their hands on to even the playing field against encroaching settlers and soldiers. Why do the Lamanites always go back to being naked in the battles? Were they that stupid? If they were so stupid, how'd they win the battles and wipe out all of the Nephites?

2. Golden plates. Come on. The plates would have to weigh at least a couple hundred pounds. Pure gold is the description. There is no stone box where they were supposed to be placed in, in New York State. These plates could not be portable, let alone carried around in a pillow case. And where does this much gold come from? There's no evidence that gold was hammered into plates and written on. Reformed Egyptian? What's that? How did someone learn such a language, let alone write it. Ever try to write something in a different language that you are not fluent in? Impossible.

3. Geography. There is no evidence in all of South, Central or North America that there were battles with the dark-skinned Lamanites and white skinned Nephites. No pictures on ancient walls. No artifacts. No anything. Use all the land mass you want and you still come out with zero evidence that these stories written in the BofM are true. They are stories. Stories. That does not mean they are true.
How did Laban's sword fit in that stone box? Maybe the box was like that bag on Harry Potter that a whole house was pulled out of.
~2bizE

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Brent
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Re: TBM's and LGT

Post by Brent » Sat Jan 25, 2020 6:59 am

Remember "the book of Mormon isn't a historical document". It's the new narrative.

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Re: TBM's and LGT

Post by Reuben » Sat Jan 25, 2020 8:07 pm

Brent wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 6:59 am
Remember "the book of Mormon isn't a historical document". It's the new narrative.
There's a word that means history from a devotional or theological perspective, which describes this new narrative well. I can't remember it, though.

I wonder how long it'll be before it's acceptable to regard the BoM as pseudepigrapha; i.e. religious fanfic.
You were born to trust, not fear. It is your birthright.

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Hagoth
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Re: TBM's and LGT

Post by Hagoth » Mon Jan 27, 2020 11:41 am

Reuben wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 8:07 pm
There's a word that means history from a devotional or theological perspective, which describes this new narrative well. I can't remember it, though.
I believe the word you're looking for is bullsh!t.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Hagoth
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Re: TBM's and LGT

Post by Hagoth » Mon Jan 27, 2020 11:49 am

2bizE wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:17 pm
How did Laban's sword fit in that stone box? Maybe the box was like that bag on Harry Potter that a whole house was pulled out of.
Or how about this one. Here's how the people of Limhi described the swords they found that were left behind by the Jaredites:
Mosiah 8:11 And again, they have brought swords, the hilts thereof have perished, and the blades thereof were cankered with rust;
They also found Coriantumr, the sole survivor of the battle that left those swords behind, still alive. So the Jaredites' steel swords rusted away in just a few years, yet Laban's sword survived intact for 2500 years?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

Gatorbait
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Re: TBM's and LGT

Post by Gatorbait » Mon Jan 27, 2020 5:41 pm

Went to Priesthood meeting yesterday....I know....I'm dodging to stones, beer bottles, and busted glass you are hurling at me in your mind, but bear with me, please.

First time I'd gone to Priesthood since I stepped away in 2015 after the infamous LGTB nonsense came down that God later changed his mind on and reversed....sort of. I admit, I really like the guys- people- in the ward, who are also my friends in the neighborhood, who have never looked down their noses at me or made me feel small. That's why I, like some of you are NOM and not...you know...out a here.

Same old same old with the B of M. They don't know much more about it now then they did then, but bless their hearts, they think it is true. The guy that taught the lesson is a very good friend of mine and he is certain that the B of M has the answer to all of life's prob-lem-os. (sigh) To the person in that room, I bet there was not one of them that cared one bit about any of the stuff we've discussed. They don't care. Someone who they trusted said it's true so it is. Done. Finished. On to the next subject. Laban's sword? What's that? Was that supposed to be in that stone box? Oops. They don't have a clue. And some of them are BYU grads and smart.

But I love them still. I do. It was a shock to my system when my shelf came a thundering down and I don't pay tithing and told our Bishop that he's never going to get me back in the temple. I'll choose my own underwear thanks very much. And wear it when and if I choose.

Just a shout out to all of the comments on this thread. Loved them all. Very insightful bunch, all of you are.
"You're not supposed to be blind with patriotism that you can't face reality. Wrong is wrong, no matter who does it or who says it" Malcolm X

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2bizE
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Re: TBM's and LGT

Post by 2bizE » Mon Jan 27, 2020 5:57 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 11:49 am
2bizE wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:17 pm
How did Laban's sword fit in that stone box? Maybe the box was like that bag on Harry Potter that a whole house was pulled out of.
Or how about this one. Here's how the people of Limhi described the swords they found that were left behind by the Jaredites:
Mosiah 8:11 And again, they have brought swords, the hilts thereof have perished, and the blades thereof were cankered with rust;
They also found Coriantumr, the sole survivor of the battle that left those swords behind, still alive. So the Jaredites' steel swords rusted away in just a few years, yet Laban's sword survived intact for 2500 years?
Obviously, Moroni sprayed the sword with Rustoleum before placing it in the box.
~2bizE

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deacon blues
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Re: TBM's and LGT

Post by deacon blues » Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:35 am

Gatorbait wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 5:41 pm
Went to Priesthood meeting yesterday....I know....I'm dodging to stones, beer bottles, and busted glass you are hurling at me in your mind, but bear with me, please.

First time I'd gone to Priesthood since I stepped away in 2015 after the infamous LGTB nonsense came down that God later changed his mind on and reversed....sort of. I admit, I really like the guys- people- in the ward, who are also my friends in the neighborhood, who have never looked down their noses at me or made me feel small. That's why I, like some of you are NOM and not...you know...out a here.

Same old same old with the B of M. They don't know much more about it now then they did then, but bless their hearts, they think it is true. The guy that taught the lesson is a very good friend of mine and he is certain that the B of M has the answer to all of life's prob-lem-os. (sigh) To the person in that room, I bet there was not one of them that cared one bit about any of the stuff we've discussed. They don't care. Someone who they trusted said it's true so it is. Done. Finished. On to the next subject. Laban's sword? What's that? Was that supposed to be in that stone box? Oops. They don't have a clue. And some of them are BYU grads and smart.

But I love them still. I do. It was a shock to my system when my shelf came a thundering down and I don't pay tithing and told our Bishop that he's never going to get me back in the temple. I'll choose my own underwear thanks very much. And wear it when and if I choose.

Just a shout out to all of the comments on this thread. Loved them all. Very insightful bunch, all of you are.
I'm like you, Gator. I like the people in my ward- they're my friends and neighbors. And, with a couple of exceptions, they haven't hassled me for going inactive. Still, they don't want to discuss other perspectives. I go to Church once a month usually, just to catch up. Maybe that makes me semi-active. ;)

PS. The Rustoleum theory could explain a lot. :lol:
God is Love. God is Truth

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