Knowing Joseph: Joseph Smith & Nauvoo Plural Marriage (SLC)

[Corsair]

This. This is fair. Anyone who couldn't agree to this is not interested in give and take.

Exactly. They are not interested in give and take. They are interested in "giving" you a faithful perspective and will be offended if you do not graciously "take".

Hales wrote the church essays on polygamy (this comes from several inside reliable sources). He's the go to guy for our church leaders regarding apologetics for polygamy. He wrote the essays and then sourced himself 8 times in the footnotes

....

He's big on the "eternity only" sealings and states many of Joseph's were these types of sealings (ie: No Sex). The truth is that there is absolutely no documentation or record anywhere stating that ANY of Joseph's sealings were for "eternity only".

Another detail from my weekend trip to Nauvoo: my mother-in-law has spent time comprehending Joseph's many, many marriages to women in Nauvoo. In particular, she came to accept that Joseph Smith married Sylvia Sessions who had been married to Windsor Lyons. The Lyons Drugstore in Nauvoo is a prominent landmark that missionaries love to talk about. They are not as eager to talk about Joseph and Sylvia.

My mother-in-law believes that Joseph did marry Sylvia for a brief time and then Sylvia went back to Windsor after a few months. My mother-in-law accepts that Joseph and Sylvia did have sex, but it was "legal" and "lawful' through some faithful hand waving and excuses. Not only that, Mother-in-law accepted that Sylvia named a daughter "Josephine" believing that this was a child of Joseph Smith. Josephine was not Joseph's daughter, but Sylvia simply assumed so based on opportunity, not DNA tests.

[MoPag]

I would love to be in your shoes with my wife.

Here’s why:

It shows she is bothered and needs to reconcile or learn more. Hello entrance to The Rabbit Hole!

Yes^^^ And do everything RR says.

Polygamy is starting to make her shelf creak and little bit. Any resistance on your part might make her want to reinforce it. Just wait patiently. Eventually it will crack, then break.

[wtfluff]

...
men in their late 30's
...

Don't you mean: "A few years before their 40th birthdays? "




Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

[oliblish]

Polygamy is starting to make her shelf creak and little bit. Any resistance on your part might make her want to reinforce it. Just wait patiently. Eventually it will crack, then break.

I wish this were the case but I don't think so. I first brought up Joseph Smith polygamy before the essays came out back in 2012 or so. She had never heard of it and I think it bothered her a little at first but she quickly put up reinforced defenses. I don't think she has thought about it since. She has told me before that she has no interest in hearing my thoughts about anything concerning the church.

She saw this conference advertised on LDSLiving or something and thinks if she can get me to go that it will "fix" me. I have seen zero indication that she has any cracks on her shelf or if she has a shelf at all as there is nothing to put on it.

[jfro18]

She saw this conference advertised on LDSLiving or something and thinks if she can get me to go that it will "fix" me. I have seen zero indication that she has any cracks on her shelf or if she has a shelf at all as there is nothing to put on it.

That sounds like my wife... she knows the issues but she has only read apologetics and it's at least for the time given her enough to just put it to the side.

If there are any cracks, she absolutely shows zero signs of it.

Of course maybe a conference like this would open your wife up to some areas she did not know about... but I think the presenters are polished enough to know how to avoid letting anything out that will harm people's unwavering faith in Joseph Smith.

[AllieOop]

Another detail from my weekend trip to Nauvoo: my mother-in-law has spent time comprehending Joseph's many, many marriages to women in Nauvoo. In particular, she came to accept that Joseph Smith married Sylvia Sessions who had been married to Windsor Lyons. The Lyons Drugstore in Nauvoo is a prominent landmark that missionaries love to talk about. They are not as eager to talk about Joseph and Sylvia.

My mother-in-law believes that Joseph did marry Sylvia for a brief time and then Sylvia went back to Windsor after a few months. My mother-in-law accepts that Joseph and Sylvia did have sex, but it was "legal" and "lawful' through some faithful hand waving and excuses.

Well, the wording in the temple endowment stated this at that time (The Law of Chastity was changed when the church stopped practicing polygamy):

Original Law of Chastity -

LAW OF CHASTITY FOR MEN

"You and each of you do covenant and promise that you will not have sexual intercourse with any of the opposite sex except your lawful wife or wives who are given you by the holy priesthood."

"All bow your heads and say yes."

LAW FOR WOMEN

"You and each of you do covenant and promise that you will not have sexual intercourse with any of the opposite sex save your lawful husband, given you by the holy priesthood."

"All bow your heads and say yes."
http://www.ldsendowment.org/1931.html

Not only that, Mother-in-law accepted that Sylvia named a daughter "Josephine" believing that this was a child of Joseph Smith. Josephine was not Joseph's daughter, but Sylvia simply assumed so based on opportunity, not DNA tests.

Yup....and Brian Hales celebrated loudly when those DNA results came in. He thinks "no kids" means "no sex"....which is one of the weakest arguments, IMO.

By the way....I am SO envious of you! Nauvoo is somewhere I'd love to go and that era in church history is one of my favorites to read about and study. I loved reading about your weekend there. Lucky you!!


***********************

[AllieOop]

...
men in their late 30's
...

Don't you mean: "A few years before their 40th birthdays? "




Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

Ha!

[Brent]

That is a whackadoodle Valentine's day present...

[Just This Guy]

If you do end up going, record it. It could provide some interesting fodder for podcasters like Bill Reel or Radio Free Mormon.

[AllieOop]

My (TBM) wife got tickets to this conference about Joseph Smith Polygamy and she wants me to go. I told her before that I wasn't interested, but she got some tickets and has invited a friend and wants me to join. The only thing worse than going might be having her go without me.

I really don't want to get into an argument about polygamy. The apologetics on this make me want to throw up and I just don't think I can handle a whole day of excuses for why it was OK for Joseph to do what he did.

I was thinking I might say I would go as long as she would prepare for it by reading a number of chapters of "In Sacred Loneliness" as preparation for the event. If she is going to hear the apologetic slant on things I want her to read the real story first.

Any ideas here? We really haven't discussed the church for a couple of years and I am afraid things can get ugly if we have to have discussions about Nauvoo Polygamy. I believe they have had this conference in other locations last year (St. George and Logan I think). Has anyone attended one of these or heard anything about them?

If I do end up going do you have any suggestions for questions I can ask or comments I should make? I think they will avoid the most uncomfortable issues so it may be up to someone like me to bring them up...

Here is the info on the Conference. It is at This is the Place Heritage Park Saturday Feb 15:



https://www.eventbrite.com/e/knowing-jo ... 5361679813

oliblish...

Did you end up going to this? (If so...I'm really curious about how it was!)



*************************

[oliblish]

My (TBM) wife got tickets to this conference about Joseph Smith Polygamy and she wants me to go. I told her before that I wasn't interested, but she got some tickets and has invited a friend and wants me to join. The only thing worse than going might be having her go without me.

I really don't want to get into an argument about polygamy. The apologetics on this make me want to throw up and I just don't think I can handle a whole day of excuses for why it was OK for Joseph to do what he did.

I was thinking I might say I would go as long as she would prepare for it by reading a number of chapters of "In Sacred Loneliness" as preparation for the event. If she is going to hear the apologetic slant on things I want her to read the real story first.

Any ideas here? We really haven't discussed the church for a couple of years and I am afraid things can get ugly if we have to have discussions about Nauvoo Polygamy. I believe they have had this conference in other locations last year (St. George and Logan I think). Has anyone attended one of these or heard anything about them?

If I do end up going do you have any suggestions for questions I can ask or comments I should make? I think they will avoid the most uncomfortable issues so it may be up to someone like me to bring them up...

Here is the info on the Conference. It is at This is the Place Heritage Park Saturday Feb 15:

https://www.eventbrite.com/e/knowing-jo ... 5361679813

oliblish...

Did you end up going to this? (If so...I'm really curious about how it was!)

*************************

I ended up not going. I thought it might be awkward to go with my TBM wife and her TBM friend who doesn't know about my lack of belief. (At least I don't think she knows. I don't know what my wife has shared with others.)

We had a talk about things when she got back. It was the first time she had heard of polyandry, and I think she was kind of surprised about that. But she seemed to buy into all of the apologetic explanations they served-up. It was kind of frustrating to see her defend such behavior.

She talked about how they were very transparent and openly talked about a lot of uncomfortable things. I asked her why the church leaders never talked about any of this. Why should she have to pay to go to an event like this which is not an official church meeting to listen to people who are not officially representing the church? Our discussion almost turned into an argument and we stopped after a while. We have not discussed it since.

[2bizE]

For some odd reason, this sounds like the pre-screening to an up and coming porn movie

[Angel]

Original Law of Chastity -

LAW OF CHASTITY FOR MEN

"You and each of you do covenant and promise that you will not have sexual intercourse with any of the opposite sex except your lawful wife or wives who are given you by the holy priesthood."

Wait wait wait - so same-sex unions are not forbidden?

[Reuben]

Original Law of Chastity -

LAW OF CHASTITY FOR MEN

"You and each of you do covenant and promise that you will not have sexual intercourse with any of the opposite sex except your lawful wife or wives who are given you by the holy priesthood."

Wait wait wait - so same-sex unions are not forbidden?

I'm sure there have been a few men who have used that loophole.

[TBM hat]
Well, maybe that particular covenant doesn't prohibit same-sex unions. But we also covenant to obey the law of the gospel as found in the holy scriptures, which does.

And now the newly clarified covenant does prohibit same-sex unions. So thankful for a living prophet!
[/TBM hat]