If I could ask them one question . . . Come Follow Me, Lesson 8

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annotatedbom
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If I could ask them one question . . . Come Follow Me, Lesson 8

Post by annotatedbom » Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:32 am

Annotated BoM starting at 2 Nephi 11
Come Follow Me, lesson 8, Feb. 17-23, 2 Ne 11-25

If I wanted to encourage thought and try to understand devout believers better, I might ask:  
"What do you think of the Book of Mormon rendering of Isaiah 9:1?"

Click here to see the Things to consider for this lesson.

And, don't miss this added bonus feature at the bottom the same page, "An addendum in defense of Mormons."
Yeah, I'm expecting push back from both sides of the isle this week.

Enjoy!
A-BoM

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jfro18
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Re: If I could ask them one question . . . Come Follow Me, Lesson 8

Post by jfro18 » Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:56 am

This might be a little on a tangent, but does anyone know of a study I believe Royal Skausen did where he saw from one of the remaining manuscripts how Joseph Smith took the Isaiah passages from the KJV and then reworked them?

I thought I read that somewhere (maybe here or the MD board) and that it showed Joseph began with the KJV text and then altered it for the BoM text.

Because one thing I've seen some apologists do is to say that the changes JS made to Isaiah actually make sense, but if you really look at both the process and the text here is being discussed by annotatedbom... it doesn't work and further shows Joseph was just inserting his own worldview and creative thought to the text to make it fit what he was trying to do.

annotatedbom
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Re: If I could ask them one question . . . Come Follow Me, Lesson 8

Post by annotatedbom » Sun Feb 16, 2020 6:34 pm

jfro18 wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:56 am
This might be a little on a tangent, but does anyone know of a study I believe Royal Skausen did where he saw from one of the remaining manuscripts how Joseph Smith took the Isaiah passages from the KJV and then reworked them?
Is this the one you're talking about?
Royal Skousen Publishes Study of Book of Mormon Translation

The article doesn't give explain anything about Joseph reworking Isaiah passages, but the study sounds like it could be what you've described.

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Palerider
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Re: If I could ask them one question . . . Come Follow Me, Lesson 8

Post by Palerider » Sun Feb 16, 2020 6:54 pm

annotatedbom wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:32 am
"What do you think of the Book of Mormon rendering of Isaiah 9:1?"
I think it's incorrect as is also the King James translation. The BoM " translation" didn't help at all. If anything it made it worse.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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Palerider
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Re: If I could ask them one question . . . Come Follow Me, Lesson 8

Post by Palerider » Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:39 pm

Regarding the lesson from the manual:

Let's envision a Christian. He/she is a student of the Bible. They find all of it interesting and motivating. Old Testament, New Testament. Many serious Christians love Isaiah. They study to understand and it.

So why would I go read a book that was supposedly written by a prophet that tells me how great Isaiah is??? And that I can use Isaiah in multiple different ways and that his writings have numerous "possible meanings" to help me to follow Christ? I already know about Isaiah!

This "prophet" maintains that he's writing these words of Isaiah from the brass plates so that his people can read them and have them as proofs of Christ. But I don't need more proofs. I already had Isaiah before he came along.

But for arguments sake, why not do as ancient scribes did and just make a copy (or multiple copies) of the brass plates for his Nephite/Lamanite people? Then they can read all of what was written. Or better yet, just let them read the brass plates themselves.
Or is this possibly an accidental admission or Freudian indication that the writer of the BoM knew that there really weren't ANY BRASS PLATES? So just pretend to be copying from the brass plates so that the BoM writer can make commentary about Isaiah and use Isaiah as a proof NOT so much about Christ but as a "proof" of the authenticity of whomever is producing the BoM.

Remember when one of the Old Testament prophets was doing some maintenance of the Temple in Jerusalem and he came across the Law of Moses written in a book so he had Israel gathered together so the book could be read to them all and they could renew their covenant with God? Why couldn't the brass plates be read for all of the believers every Sabbath in the Americas?
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

annotatedbom
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Re: If I could ask them one question . . . Come Follow Me, Lesson 8

Post by annotatedbom » Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:40 am

Palerider wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:39 pm
But for arguments sake, why not do as ancient scribes did and just make a copy (or multiple copies) of the brass plates for his Nephite/Lamanite people? Then they can read all of what was written. Or better yet, just let them read the brass plates themselves.
Or is this possibly an accidental admission or Freudian indication that the writer of the BoM knew that there really weren't ANY BRASS PLATES? So just pretend to be copying from the brass plates so that the BoM writer can make commentary about Isaiah and use Isaiah as a proof NOT so much about Christ but as a "proof" of the authenticity of whomever is producing the BoM.

Remember when one of the Old Testament prophets was doing some maintenance of the Temple in Jerusalem and he came across the Law of Moses written in a book so he had Israel gathered together so the book could be read to them all and they could renew their covenant with God? Why couldn't the brass plates be read for all of the believers every Sabbath in the Americas?
Palerider - This is all gold! And, it reminds me that you can bring this full circle to the rationalization for the Lehite need of the brass plates in the first place. They were so important that Nephi, et. al., had to risk multiple excursions into dangerous territory and Nephi has to behead an unconscious drunk in order to get the plates. However, the best use of them seems to be what you point out - an inefficient copy and paste job unto other plates? You're right, and as usual, the case for the BoM doesn't seem to add up.

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Hagoth
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Re: If I could ask them one question . . . Come Follow Me, Lesson 8

Post by Hagoth » Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:24 pm

Palerider wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:39 pm
Why couldn't the brass plates be read for all of the believers every Sabbath in the Americas?
For that matter, why can't the modern prophet just stand at the podium every April and October and read from the gold plates, or if God insists on being stingy with them, from the rock that they still have?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

Reuben
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Re: If I could ask them one question . . . Come Follow Me, Lesson 8

Post by Reuben » Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:56 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:24 pm
Palerider wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:39 pm
Why couldn't the brass plates be read for all of the believers every Sabbath in the Americas?
For that matter, why can't the modern prophet just stand at the podium every April and October and read from the gold plates, or if God insists on being stingy with them, from the rock that they still have?
None of them grew up swindling credulous neighbors by charging them to find lost treasure, so they don't know how to work the damn thing.
You were born to trust, not fear. It is your birthright.

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Palerider
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Re: If I could ask them one question . . . Come Follow Me, Lesson 8

Post by Palerider » Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:04 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:24 pm
Palerider wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:39 pm
Why couldn't the brass plates be read for all of the believers every Sabbath in the Americas?
For that matter, why can't the modern prophet just stand at the podium every April and October and read from the gold plates, or if God insists on being stingy with them, from the rock that they still have?
Ha, can you imagine what some other churches would make of Pres. Hunter on television with his face buried in a hat reading Reformed Egyptian.... :shock:
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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deacon blues
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Re: If I could ask them one question . . . Come Follow Me, Lesson 8

Post by deacon blues » Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:25 pm

I liked the bonus section. I think it's silly when Christians say things like "to be a REAL Christian you have to believe such and such." It's petty and even Mormons do it. I recall conference talks were somebody would say "be a Christian you have to believe in some kind of immaculate conception,(Catholic or Mormon :roll: ) thus dissing Unitarians or anyone who might believe the Gospel of Mark is the most accurate because it apparently was written before the others. Bravo, Annotated. :D
God is Love. God is Truth

annotatedbom
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Re: If I could ask them one question . . . Come Follow Me, Lesson 8

Post by annotatedbom » Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:44 pm

deacon blues wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:25 pm
I liked the bonus section. I think it's silly when Christians say things like "to be a REAL Christian you have to believe such and such." It's petty and even Mormons do it. I recall conference talks were somebody would say "be a Christian you have to believe in some kind of immaculate conception,(Catholic or Mormon :roll: ) thus dissing Unitarians or anyone who might believe the Gospel of Mark is the most accurate because it apparently was written before the others. Bravo, Annotated. :D
Thanks Deac!

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