Praying together after leaving the church :)

Discussions about negotiating relationships between faithful LDS believers and the apostates who love them. This applies in particular to mixed-faith marriages, but relations with children, parents, siblings, friends, and ward members is very welcome.
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Angel
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Praying together after leaving the church :)

Post by Angel » Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:28 pm

So, I was the first one out, 2/3 kids are now out, and hubbie is atheist? at least that is what he has been claiming - so surprise surprise, just out of habit I think - he said "ok, let's have a prayer" when we were all getting dinner tonight... so everyone looks at him strangely, but then we all gathered for prayer... :lol: ... we had been joking about the corona virus (I know, not funny).. so he prays "please protect us against the deadly corona virus :lol: and I busted out laughing, and he is grinning, and turns to the kids, and tells them I am going to die because I didn't properly participate in family prayer :lol:

ok - as horrible as mixed faith marriages can be - I know, I was in one for a bit - there can be light at the end of the tunnel guys. :lol:
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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RubinHighlander
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Re: Praying together after leaving the church :)

Post by RubinHighlander » Thu Feb 27, 2020 7:11 pm

Great story! We still pray when grandma comes for dinner, but it's sure a lot more fun when she's not there and we can party with all our adult kids. Sometimes we say mock prayers, like praise Jebus and the Flying Spaghetti Monster. For a while I prayed with DW, even after we were out, just because it's so ingrained in us that it just felt weird not to for a while. But like me, she eventually became comfortable that there may be nothing out there or if there is, it's certainly not the white haired old bipolar psychotic we were raised to believe in.
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
--Douglas Adams

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE

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Hagoth
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Re: Praying together after leaving the church :)

Post by Hagoth » Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:08 pm

Mrs. Hagoth still do a brief evening prayer. She's ok with the idea that I'm just expressing gratitude to The Big Everything.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Angel
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Re: Praying together after leaving the church :)

Post by Angel » Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:20 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:08 pm
Mrs. Hagoth still do a brief evening prayer. She's ok with the idea that I'm just expressing gratitude to The Big Everything.
TBE, I like it. I have been going with "Loving God" - no gender, neutral enough to not be noticed, God is love, or there is no god for me :)
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Hagoth
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Re: Praying together after leaving the church :)

Post by Hagoth » Fri Feb 28, 2020 11:23 am

Angel wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:20 pm
Hagoth wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:08 pm
Mrs. Hagoth still do a brief evening prayer. She's ok with the idea that I'm just expressing gratitude to The Big Everything.
TBE, I like it. I have been going with "Loving God" - no gender, neutral enough to not be noticed, God is love, or there is no god for me :)
Just yesterday we had a discussion about how a real God would have to be at least as loving, forgiving, and supportive as the most loving, forgiving, and supportive person you have ever met, which doesn't describe that being in the Old Testament and Book of Mormon. I always say that I see scripture as man reaching out to God, not the other way around, which is why the god of scripture is male and made in our image.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Angel
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Re: Praying together after leaving the church :)

Post by Angel » Sat Mar 07, 2020 6:37 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 11:23 am
Angel wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:20 pm
Hagoth wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:08 pm
Mrs. Hagoth still do a brief evening prayer. She's ok with the idea that I'm just expressing gratitude to The Big Everything.
TBE, I like it. I have been going with "Loving God" - no gender, neutral enough to not be noticed, God is love, or there is no god for me :)
Just yesterday we had a discussion about how a real God would have to be at least as loving, forgiving, and supportive as the most loving, forgiving, and supportive person you have ever met, which doesn't describe that being in the Old Testament and Book of Mormon. I always say that I see scripture as man reaching out to God, not the other way around, which is why the god of scripture is male and made in our image.
Yes - either God is loving, merciful, and just, or there is no God at all. Either way, no one has anything to worry about.
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Hagoth
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Re: Praying together after leaving the church :)

Post by Hagoth » Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:25 pm

Angel wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 6:37 pm
- either God is loving, merciful, and just, or there is no God at all. Either way, no one has anything to worry about.
Except that there are billions of people who seem just fine with a cruel, vengeful God, and we have to live among those people.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Angel
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Re: Praying together after leaving the church :)

Post by Angel » Thu Mar 12, 2020 5:17 am

Hagoth wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:25 pm
Angel wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 6:37 pm
- either God is loving, merciful, and just, or there is no God at all. Either way, no one has anything to worry about.
Except that there are billions of people who seem just fine with a cruel, vengeful God, and we have to live among those people.
If there is a loving God, suffering has to be justified- I suppose the best answer is a greater appreciation for good... including a better appreciation of forgiveness and of a merciful God...
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Hagoth
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Re: Praying together after leaving the church :)

Post by Hagoth » Thu Mar 12, 2020 7:35 am

Angel wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 5:17 am
If there is a loving God, suffering has to be justified- I suppose the best answer is a greater appreciation for good... including a better appreciation of forgiveness and of a merciful God...
It would be comforting to believe that, even if God pours out suffering in this life, he will be merciful in the next. But that is not really what most people believe. Most hope for mercy for themselves and other properly-vetted adherents and assume terrible outcomes for everyone else. I heard an Evangelical say that the reason heaven will be so sweet for him will be his assurance that most of mankind is suffering in hell. I asked a very kind and devout Muslim what she believes about the afterlife and she said she's terrified to think about it. She referenced a story in an Islamic commentary (I forget the name) about someone who found themselves in hell because they had not offered food to a hungry cat.

I hope I will be pleasantly surprised by a loving and merciful God when I die. I know my mother and father would still want the best for me, even though I lost my faith in the church. I hope God, if there is one, would be as considerate.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Angel
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Re: Praying together after leaving the church :)

Post by Angel » Sat Mar 14, 2020 5:33 am

Hagoth wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 7:35 am
Angel wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 5:17 am
If there is a loving God, suffering has to be justified- I suppose the best answer is a greater appreciation for good... including a better appreciation of forgiveness and of a merciful God...
It would be comforting to believe that, even if God pours out suffering in this life, he will be merciful in the next. But that is not really what most people believe. Most hope for mercy for themselves and other properly-vetted adherents and assume terrible outcomes for everyone else. I heard an Evangelical say that the reason heaven will be so sweet for him will be his assurance that most of mankind is suffering in hell. I asked a very kind and devout Muslim what she believes about the afterlife and she said she's terrified to think about it. She referenced a story in an Islamic commentary (I forget the name) about someone who found themselves in hell because they had not offered food to a hungry cat.

I hope I will be pleasantly surprised by a loving and merciful God when I die. I know my mother and father would still want the best for me, even though I lost my faith in the church. I hope God, if there is one, would be as considerate.
Here is another speculation and justification if one is to believe in God - IF there is a loving God, why all the different groups? Why the "tower of babble", why the divisions? ... I guess one could ask why capitalism sort of works... competition is a good motivator... if you want selfish lazy people to do anything good, you have to set up a competitive system where people are trying to be holier than others or nothing good would ever be done... of course the ultimate goal would be for people to be good all on their own for goodness sake, but starting habits has to start somewhere??

ok, it's getting harder and harder to justify a loving God :( :(
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Hagoth
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Re: Praying together after leaving the church :)

Post by Hagoth » Sat Mar 14, 2020 7:27 am

Angel wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 5:33 am
Here is another speculation and justification if one is to believe in God - IF there is a loving God, why all the different groups? Why the "tower of babble", why the divisions? ... I guess one could ask why capitalism sort of works... competition is a good motivator... if you want selfish lazy people to do anything good, you have to set up a competitive system where people are trying to be holier than others or nothing good would ever be done... of course the ultimate goal would be for people to be good all on their own for goodness sake, but starting habits has to start somewhere??

ok, it's getting harder and harder to justify a loving God :( :(
But it doesn't necessarily rule out a concept of God, it just means that people reinvent God in their own image as a device for getting what they want, or as a rock to throw at people who aren't exactly like them. If you put aside a personal God that is made in our image for something bigger and less comprehensible to human brains, and if that God encompasses all of nature, including us, then that God is as loving and as forgiving as we are. I know, not a "loving Heavenly Father," but it's the best I am able to do, given the evidence. You have to start believing a concept more like Tao or Brahman, or the God of Spinoza. And you have to embrace the fact that you may never find your keys.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Angel
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Re: Praying together after leaving the church :)

Post by Angel » Wed Mar 25, 2020 3:07 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 7:27 am
Angel wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 5:33 am
Here is another speculation and justification if one is to believe in God - IF there is a loving God, why all the different groups? Why the "tower of babble", why the divisions? ... I guess one could ask why capitalism sort of works... competition is a good motivator... if you want selfish lazy people to do anything good, you have to set up a competitive system where people are trying to be holier than others or nothing good would ever be done... of course the ultimate goal would be for people to be good all on their own for goodness sake, but starting habits has to start somewhere??

ok, it's getting harder and harder to justify a loving God :( :(
But it doesn't necessarily rule out a concept of God, it just means that people reinvent God in their own image as a device for getting what they want, or as a rock to throw at people who aren't exactly like them. If you put aside a personal God that is made in our image for something bigger and less comprehensible to human brains, and if that God encompasses all of nature, including us, then that God is as loving and as forgiving as we are. I know, not a "loving Heavenly Father," but it's the best I am able to do, given the evidence. You have to start believing a concept more like Tao or Brahman, or the God of Spinoza. And you have to embrace the fact that you may never find your keys.
The tao that can be told is not the eternal tao - I do think there is something within the tao te ching :)
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Hagoth
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Re: Praying together after leaving the church :)

Post by Hagoth » Wed Mar 25, 2020 3:24 pm

Angel wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 3:07 pm
The tao that can be told is not the eternal tao - I do think there is something within the tao te ching :)
"The gate to all mystery."
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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alas
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Re: Praying together after leaving the church :)

Post by alas » Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:19 pm

On this question of why is there suffering and evil in the world if God is loving, I have come to accept that it is for our “education” and not a test we can flunk but just a challenging learning experience. We are given infinite living experiences, so we keep learning in one life after the next Until we decide we are bored or whatever. I imaging God like a good college professor who makes his class challenging enough for the brightest student because we respond better to challenge even than competition. Think of 90% of modern computer games. You are not competing against others in Candy Crush but is is hard enough that there is a fun challenge and sometimes it gets difficult enough that you wonder what the hell you are playing this for. But if it is too easy you get bored and find a different game. I have started about six of those where the puzzles are just too easy and boring. In the Book One by Richard Bach, he has one episode where there is reincarnation and you just keep having earth lives for the fun of it. Yeah. Maybe like RPGs (role playing games) where people get killed and suffer and are sometimes evil, but it is fun because you never know how it is going to turn out. Doesn’t need a “Savior” to be tortured “for” us so that a cruel God is capable of forgiving us. Because even when you are evil on one earth life, you learn, just like when you play the bad guy in RPGs. And over all, it is fun.

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