Whats your favorite mormon koan?

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Lucidity
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Whats your favorite mormon koan?

Post by Lucidity » Thu May 21, 2020 10:06 pm

I was recently talking with Hagoth about the last session of CG and he made the comment, "what does it say when your entire message is, BELIEVE ME! IT'S TRUE!"

This really struck me. A sort of koan like realization moment. Suddenly that was all I heard the GA's say. Either directly or indirectly. This has got me thinking about other simple "ah ha" phrases that might make you wonder if you had heard them as a believer if it would have snapped you out of the TBM reality, or at least given you a good shake.

The first day of my faith crisis when i was afraid to dig further I had the thought "if the something is true, I shouldn't be afraid to investigate it". After that thought I felt confident I wasn't doing anything wrong by seeking the truth, and the fact that I was afraid to was in itself troublesome.

Rueben recently posted this:
"...but the big realization came during a F&T meeting. It had this form in my head.

"How the hell do they know anything?"

"I'm not like these people."

Social influence broken. My so-called "testimony" flew to pieces two weeks later."



So what are some short thoughts or phrases that have hit you hard and you think have the potential to wake someone from their slumber.

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1smartdodog
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Whats your favorite mormon koan?

Post by 1smartdodog » Fri May 22, 2020 4:29 am

Why are we willing to attribute behaviors to god, such as the need for constant worship, or loyalty test to kill you son, that we would find disgusting in ourselves or others.

How come everyone in the world fasted and prayed for virus relief and nothing really changed? What was the point?

How can anyone claim god miraculously helped them find their car keys, so as to not be late to work, yet is deaf to the 13 year old sold into sex slavery?

Why are Mormons so conservative, yet claim the wonder of a church that behaves as a socialist entity?

At what point will evidence be as important as emotional experiences.


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“Five percent of the people think; ten percent of the people think they think; and the other eighty-five percent would rather die than think.”
― Thomas A. Edison

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moksha
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Re: Whats your favorite mormon koan?

Post by moksha » Fri May 22, 2020 5:48 am

As the Community of Christ is now, we may become.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Hagoth
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Re: Whats your favorite mormon koan?

Post by Hagoth » Fri May 22, 2020 6:05 am

What is the sound of one hand high-fiving a spirit?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Lucidity
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Re: Whats your favorite mormon koan?

Post by Lucidity » Fri May 22, 2020 8:31 am

moksha wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 5:48 am
As the Community of Christ is now, we may become.
I love this one, and I think its actually quite effective. I talk to one of my more nuanced TBM friends fairly often about the direction the church is going, what changes will be made and when.

Last time we talked I finally just said you want to know what the church will look like in 30yrs or so? Just look at the Community of Christ. I think the idea that we are inadvertently following their footsteps was pretty jolting to him, and the evidence bearing that out can become an instant shelf item.

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Corsair
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Re: Whats your favorite mormon koan?

Post by Corsair » Fri May 22, 2020 9:25 am

"Consider the Abrahamic Sacrifice story. Consider how Joseph Smith and early prophets married teenagers. Are there any requests that you would not do if the prophet asked you to do it?"

Gatorbait
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Re: Whats your favorite mormon koan?

Post by Gatorbait » Fri May 22, 2020 2:16 pm

The thing that stuck out in my mind, growing up in a part-member family, was this "time and all eternity-sealed to your family" business.

Never made sense. Doesn't make sense. Only thing that does make sense is one person sealed to one person. Or with polygamy- one person sealed to many persons. That's the end of it. Offspring start the process over again. We've discussed this many a time. This conundrum has never ever been explained to me in a way that makes the slightest sense.
"Let no man count himself righteous who permits a wrong he could avert". N.N. Riddell

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Red Ryder
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Re: Whats your favorite mormon koan?

Post by Red Ryder » Fri May 22, 2020 4:12 pm

Why do “prophets of god” always have to have sex with their congregation?

Joseph Smith
David Koresh
Jim Jones
Warren Jeff’s
Nigerian sex cults.

The list goes on.

If anything there’s a clear pattern that’s so obvious to see once you allow yourself to look.
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

Reuben
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Re: Whats your favorite mormon koan?

Post by Reuben » Fri May 22, 2020 8:01 pm

1smartdodog wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 4:29 am
Why are we willing to attribute behaviors to god, such as the need for constant worship, or loyalty test to kill you son, that we would find disgusting in ourselves or others.
I love this one, so I'm going to take a stab at shortening it.

Why doesn't God meet the standards he holds us to?
How can anyone claim god miraculously helped them find their car keys, so as to not be late to work, yet is deaf to the 13 year old sold into sex slavery?
Why does God give the least help to people who need it most?

And a few of my own.

What does it mean that every charge Jesus leveled against the Pharisees (e.g. Matthew 24) applies to the church?

We assume God cared that Joseph practiced polygamy. What level of caring would get him to threaten to destroy Joseph if he didn't do it, but not give him further instructions for years?

How could a seer get the translation of every element in the Book of Abraham facsimiles wrong?

Before 1978, the prophets incited racism in the church. Given that, what does it mean that they can't lead the church astray?

Is there anything, even if you think it's impossible, that would make you change your mind about the church?
You were born to trust, not fear. It is your birthright.

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blazerb
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Re: Whats your favorite mormon koan?

Post by blazerb » Fri May 22, 2020 8:26 pm

If Russell M. Nelson speaks to an empty conference center, does he make a sound?

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Hagoth
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Re: Whats your favorite mormon koan?

Post by Hagoth » Sat May 23, 2020 6:56 am

“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Palerider
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Re: Whats your favorite mormon koan?

Post by Palerider » Sat May 23, 2020 6:10 pm

I'm of the opinion that in most ways, Christ's upbringing wasn't too terribly different from other people. I highly doubt that he was a humourless child.

With that in mind, I was thinking about the first recorded miracle at the wedding in Cana. One might ask themselves why His mother Mary would even think to come to him for help with the sudden shortage of wine at the affair? Most likely because all during his life there had probably been the occasional private and seemingly odd occurence of something a bit miraculous happening "around" Jesus.

Knowing he was "special" I'm sure she put two and two together.

So it comes as no surprise that she would approach him for a special dispensation in this case. The problem was that it was a very public arena and his time had not yet arrived. So I see a gentle chiding, maybe even with a bit of a smile when he essentially says, "Woman, what am I going to do with you?"

Also in Matthew 25:21 we find the parable of the talents:

"His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord."

I think there are going to be many smiles to go around.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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