What To Do About The Police

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Give It Time
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What To Do About The Police

Post by Give It Time » Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:34 pm

Clearly something needs to change. Defund and Dismantle? Weed out the bad apples and train the remaining to do and be better? I haven't experienced the brutality the Black community has faced, but I've had some experiences with police and know of others that have been less than positive. For instance,

While a deaf church service was in progress, three cars in the parking lot were broken into and valuables were stolen. The police were called and, since they were deaf, the police officer wouldn't help them. There wasn't anyone available on the clock who could serve as interpreter, he said. Even though, I'm sure about 90% of the people in that congregation had alternative ways of communicating. The police officer was able to confirm that it was probably two or more young men who did the crime, but other than that, anyone who had anything stolen would have to wait until the police station was open on Monday to fill out a report. This story was related to a class I was attending. All of us in the class were thunderstruck at how casually the woman telling the story shrugged her shoulders about not getting immediate action and she said, "happens all the time".

I know that relations between the Deaf community and police are fraught, because a person who is hard of hearing or deaf cannot always hear what the police officer is telling them to do and this is seen by the police officer as resistance. Also, it isn't unusual for a police officer to shine a bright flashlight in the eyes of the person they are interrogating. This prevents lip reading. So, problems there.

My own experience--among a few others--include having been pulled over and questioned without the officer having probable cause.

Defunding and dismantling the police and replacing them with programs that will reduce food scarcity and increase job security, health insurance and education. All of these will be huge helps and I do believe they will reduce crime. However,

I also knew this man

https://federalnewsnetwork.com/national ... r-murders/

and worked with him and Victor Aguilar. I also believe he was planning to make me one of his victims. I can tell you that people like this guy absolutely love to game the system and would absolutely take advantage of a reduced police presence.

I'm not sure where the middle ground is on this.

I would appreciate hearing experiences either way and insight.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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Palerider
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Re: What To Do About The Police

Post by Palerider » Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:23 pm

Not that this wouldn't be an interesting topic but I was under the impression that talking politics on the NOM site was discouraged. I feel like we're getting drawn into an arena that could possibly concentrate more on our differences than our commonalities. And people seem to drift easily into disrespectful attacks as opposed to thoughtful discussion when politics become the topic.

Or possibly the Coffee Shop would be a good place for this?

Any thoughts from our moderators?
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"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

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Just This Guy
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Re: What To Do About The Police

Post by Just This Guy » Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:57 am

I think there is a basic core problem that the average person doesn't trust the police. Even with simple stuff. I can't tell you the number of times that I am driving, at the speed limit or just above, and I get passed by a cop car going way faster with no lights on. Or I have seen police cars stopped at a light. Constantly talking on cell phone despite laws banning it. They throw their lights on to get through the intersection against the red, and then turn the lights off as soon as they are through. I can give it that occasionally they have a need for this, but it is too common to believe it is always needed.

My wife found a interesting way of looking at it. Some industries cannot have bad apples. You can't have an airline where a pilot can decide that they don't feel like making a safe landing once in a while. Police need to be the same way. Zero tolerance for bad apples.

Part of this may be that a lot of police do feel they are above the law and Police unions can be a major help to protect bad apples. NPR had an interesting podcast about police unions and the effect they have on civilian deaths.
https://www.npr.org/2020/06/03/86917694 ... ian-deaths

Unions have a well earned reputation for protecting bad apples and Police unions seam to turn that up to 11.

So a few ideas I have.

1. I am not completely for banning police unions outright, but some people are calling for it (including other labor unions) and in some extreme cases, that may be the case.
2. There needs to be national limits to the amount of protections a union can get for officers. For example, giving officers time to compare stories before they give statements for example need to be banned. You don't give crime suspects that luxury, police should be held to the same standard.
3. This applies for all government unions, not just police, but as the ultimate stake holder in a government employee union is the taxpayer/voter. All union contracts for government employees must be publicly available for review and comment. Additionally, all government union contracts must be approved by the affected voters before it can be valid.
4. Any time a judgement is rendered that results in a fine against a police officer and/or department, that fine must be matched by the city/state and the local police union. All three entities must be accountable and be held responsible.
5. Do we create a national level police-the-police force? They would be under-cover and have power to arrest police officers like police arrest civilians.
6. Increase requirements for officers. Require a 2 year degree in criminal justice.
7. Create a national police training center. A 3 month boot camp covering laws, techniques, etc.
Last edited by Just This Guy on Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:27 am, edited 3 times in total.
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alas
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Re: What To Do About The Police

Post by alas » Thu Jun 11, 2020 7:02 am

Not a moderator, but, I do think the coffee shop is a better place for this discussion.

I have had both good and bad experiences with the police. Good, well, I was training them how better do deal with rape victims. They were respectful of my experience as a social worker dealing with rape victims and eager to learn how to better handle cases so that the victim would not see them as worse than the rapist and refuse to cooperate further. Most of my rape victim clients never reported because the police and whole court system have such bad track records. But the Ogden police had the specialized training our agency provided and the victims who reported, went to the hospital for the rape kit and exam actually had neutral or positive experiences with the police. Neutral being not that the officer’s behavior was bad, just that the victim already felt so violated and police “efficiency” came across as cold. Others wanted that distant efficiency and get this over with and let me go home and clean up my body.

So, specific training on the different situations they run into help. If they understand the trauma of rape, and the NORMAL reaction to an ABNORMAL situation, then they are prepared to deal with rape victims who are either hysterical or have totally flat affect, the seemingly no reaction or upset that often makes the police doubt that a rape happened. If they understand that one week after the rape, the victim normally shuts down and doesn’t want to talk about it, prosecute or cooperate with police...or come into the counseling appointment they set up with me, then they can better counter this shutting down response and keep a victim who is cooperating with police.

Departments really need a special victims unit without the damn guns on their belts and FEMALE officers as well as male officers who have several months worth of training instead of one evening in the continuing officer service training.

My bad experience is highway patrol who target out of state, then lie to them that they were going 15mph faster than they were actually going, and pretend to do them a BIG favor and write the ticket for 5mph faster than they were actually going, which makes them going the 10mph over the speed limit at which they can write the ticket. When the driver was actually traveling no faster than 80% of the other traffic at about 5mph over the posted speed, but they were supposedly out of state because they are actually military stationed in the state and didn’t change the tags on the car every move, because legally we didn’t have to. It is called generating revenue for the department and it has happened to me exactly like that three times. So you KNOW they talk to each other about how to bring in money for the department. They lied and then did me the big favor of ticketing me for faster that I was actually going and I lost all respect for Utah highway patrol.

So one change I want is money from writing out tickets goes to the city parks and zoo and museums, not the police department. Then they have no incentive to write out tickets over and above actual law breakers.

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Give It Time
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Re: What To Do About The Police

Post by Give It Time » Thu Jun 11, 2020 7:17 am

Some very interesting comments and experiences. Thank you for sharing them. As for what can be discussed on NOM, it was my impression that anything goes, whereas NOM 1.0 had more guidelines. I forgot about the coffee shop. I've been away so long that the coffee shop didn't come to mind as a place to post this. If the discussion needs to stop or this post needs to move. I'm fine either way. It's been helpful to learn that other people have had a mix of experiences, as well.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

CaptainSalty
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Re: What To Do About The Police

Post by CaptainSalty » Thu Jun 11, 2020 11:20 am

A quick note. Everyone here at NOM over the last 3 years have been wonderful at self moderating to the point that the actual moderators haven’t had to do much other than shoo away a few crazy cats. In that respect, we agree with Palerider that this topic should be in the Coffee Shop so it has been moved to appropriately fit our natural forum categories.

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Red Ryder
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Re: What To Do About The Police

Post by Red Ryder » Thu Jun 11, 2020 11:38 am

I don’t think the police should be defunded.

I think the police should be de-militarized or at at least scoped down to special tactical units to exist for special circumstances. I think most city departments run this way but have the weapons to pull out when needed.

With a lot of things lately I think the answer is somewhere in the middle.

It’s amazing how far we’ve turned since September 11th when all the firefighters and police were hero’s and the country felt united even if under tragedy.
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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Give It Time
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Re: What To Do About The Police

Post by Give It Time » Thu Jun 11, 2020 12:59 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 11:38 am
I don’t think the police should be defunded.

I think the police should be de-militarized or at at least scoped down to special tactical units to exist for special circumstances. I think most city departments run this way but have the weapons to pull out when needed.

With a lot of things lately I think the answer is somewhere in the middle.

It’s amazing how far we’ve turned since September 11th when all the firefighters and police were hero’s and the country felt united even if under tragedy.
Excellent points.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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Hagoth
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Re: What To Do About The Police

Post by Hagoth » Sat Jun 13, 2020 2:08 pm

CaptainSalty wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 11:20 am
A quick note. Everyone here at NOM over the last 3 years have been wonderful at self moderating to the point that the actual moderators haven’t had to do much other than shoo away a few crazy cats. In that respect, we agree with Palerider that this topic should be in the Coffee Shop so it has been moved to appropriately fit our natural forum categories.
Agreed! I admit that I have colored outside of the lines on occasion but I'll try to keep it within the walls of the coffee shop.

Cafe Au Lait for me, please.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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Hagoth
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Re: What To Do About The Police

Post by Hagoth » Sat Jun 13, 2020 2:18 pm

Give It Time wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:34 pm
I also believe he was planning to make me one of his victims.
:o

I mainly think that there are a lot of reasons to dial 911 that may not best served by having people with guns show up, so maybe we need to expand other areas of support and put more money/focus into dealing with problems before they reach the 911 level. I really like Alas' suggestion of police specialists who don't always have one hand on the handle of a gun.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Give It Time
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Re: What To Do About The Police

Post by Give It Time » Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:39 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 2:18 pm
Give It Time wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:34 pm
I also believe he was planning to make me one of his victims.
:o

I mainly think that there are a lot of reasons to dial 911 that may not best served by having people with guns show up, so maybe we need to expand other areas of support and put more money/focus into dealing with problems before they reach the 911 level. I really like Alas' suggestion of police specialists who don't always have one hand on the handle of a gun.
Oh my. It's a long and complicated story. Let's see if I can give you the lite and easy version. He used to flirt with me. He gave me some poems. I had agreed to go on a date with him. Then he killed a co-worker and that's what put him in jail. When they searched his apartment, they found the personal effects of a woman who'd been missing and certain things about the evidence suggested murder-rape. They showed a picture of the missing victim and she looked like me. About twenty-five years later, they linked him to another victim. A cold murder-rape case. They showed a picture of the victim. She looked like a couple of twins at my work who he used to flirt with.

So, that's it. It never got to 911 level. There was grooming and psychopathy involved. Some people just need to be behind bars and sometimes it takes the police to search the canyons to find the idiot and his friend with the vault they tore out of the wall to put them in jail.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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Give It Time
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Re: What To Do About The Police

Post by Give It Time » Tue Jun 16, 2020 4:51 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 2:18 pm
Give It Time wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:34 pm
I also believe he was planning to make me one of his victims.
:o

I mainly think that there are a lot of reasons to dial 911 that may not best served by having people with guns show up, so maybe we need to expand other areas of support and put more money/focus into dealing with problems before they reach the 911 level. I really like Alas' suggestion of police specialists who don't always have one hand on the handle of a gun.
Hagoth, I apologize. My response was a little bit knew jerk and just the kind of thing you're trying to avoid when discussing topics that can get heated. I just saw my experience being misunderstood.

However, I do agree that there are many, many times that programs from birth onwards can prevent a lot of crime.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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Hagoth
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Re: What To Do About The Police

Post by Hagoth » Tue Jun 16, 2020 6:38 pm

No, GIT, I need to apologize. My reaction to your post was the :o , as in Oh no!!

The rest of what I said should have been in a separate post.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Re: What To Do About The Police

Post by moksha » Tue Jun 16, 2020 10:26 pm

I think the police are a necessary public service that we cannot do without. That said we must prevent the police from getting away with murder. The police have somehow gotten out of control. Maybe this is due to bad training or bad hiring. Perhaps it is due to a willful blind eye being cast, by the public, to police misdeeds in the past. That time is over and this festering problem needs to be fixed so society can go back to functioning on a normal basis.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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Hagoth
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Re: What To Do About The Police

Post by Hagoth » Wed Jun 17, 2020 7:44 am

I am surprised that these kinds of conversations never mention that the police in the UK are able to maintain law and order without the use of firearms. Most of them are armed only with batons and pepper spray. Of course, that requires them to stay fit enough to chase down a suspect, and socially strategic enough to deescalate a situation without the option of punctuating the conversation with bullets.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Give It Time
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Re: What To Do About The Police

Post by Give It Time » Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:08 pm

moksha wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 10:26 pm
I think the police are a necessary public service that we cannot do without. That said we must prevent the police from getting away with murder. The police have somehow gotten out of control. Maybe this is due to bad training or bad hiring. Perhaps it is due to a willful blind eye being cast, by the public, to police misdeeds in the past. That time is over and this festering problem needs to be fixed so society can go back to functioning on a normal basis.
Agree wholeheartedly.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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Give It Time
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Re: What To Do About The Police

Post by Give It Time » Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:09 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 7:44 am
I am surprised that these kinds of conversations never mention that the police in the UK are able to maintain law and order without the use of firearms. Most of them are armed only with batons and pepper spray. Of course, that requires them to stay fit enough to chase down a suspect, and socially strategic enough to deescalate a situation without the option of punctuating the conversation with bullets.
Interesting point. I'd forgotten this.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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Random
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Re: What To Do About The Police

Post by Random » Sun Jun 21, 2020 6:57 pm

Give It Time wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:39 pm
He used to flirt with me. He gave me some poems. I had agreed to go on a date with him. Then he killed a co-worker and that's what put him in jail. When they searched his apartment, they found the personal effects of a woman who'd been missing and certain things about the evidence suggested murder-rape. They showed a picture of the missing victim and she looked like me.
Holy hell! :shock: That's terrifying. I'm glad you couldn't go on the date! (At least, it's my understanding that him being in jail prevented the date.)
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
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Random
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Re: What To Do About The Police

Post by Random » Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:00 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 7:44 am
I am surprised that these kinds of conversations never mention that the police in the UK are able to maintain law and order without the use of firearms. Most of them are armed only with batons and pepper spray. Of course, that requires them to stay fit enough to chase down a suspect, and socially strategic enough to deescalate a situation without the option of punctuating the conversation with bullets.
Aren't firearms illegal there? That means the people apprehended/arrested don't have guns, right? So, if our police were to be de-armed, it could be dangerous for them under the present circumstances.
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

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Hagoth
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Re: What To Do About The Police

Post by Hagoth » Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:54 am

Random wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:00 pm
Aren't firearms illegal there?
Good point. Their mass murderers have to resort to using knives, so they only kill the number of people you can count on one hand, rather than mowing them down by the dozens.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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