Estrangement
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Estrangement
I know I'm not the only one informally estranged from certain family members.
However, it's anyone formally estranged from specific relatives within a big old ugly Mormon dynasty?
Did you set boundaries with other family members regarding events where you'll both be present/ invited to? Do you tell others in the family that you've discontinued a relationship?
What has worked for you?
Best practices?
We just learned of more layers of generational trauma and are just, done. But want to do it in the way that will hopefully preserve relationships with family members that we do value.
However, it's anyone formally estranged from specific relatives within a big old ugly Mormon dynasty?
Did you set boundaries with other family members regarding events where you'll both be present/ invited to? Do you tell others in the family that you've discontinued a relationship?
What has worked for you?
Best practices?
We just learned of more layers of generational trauma and are just, done. But want to do it in the way that will hopefully preserve relationships with family members that we do value.
- slavereeno
- Posts: 1247
- Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:30 am
- Location: QC, AZ
Re: Estrangement
Sorry to hear that you are feeling estranged. That sucks.
DW has gone to lengths to hide our disaffection from our family. However, there is still some suspicion, so we still get avoided a little.
DW has gone to lengths to hide our disaffection from our family. However, there is still some suspicion, so we still get avoided a little.
Re: Estrangement
MORmONism basically estranged my family of origin from each other, even when we were all attempting to be good MORmONs. "The Church" was always the most important thing in my family, which is what I believed caused the estrangement.
There's nothing like any sort of formal boundaries that I know of. We just basically don't get together as a family unless some MORmON milestone is in the works. So of course, not everyone shows up for those, and when the non-believers don't show, the believers toss around loads of MORmON platitudes to feel better that the non-believers aren't there? I'm not exactly sure why that happens. Thus my "feel better" question. Maybe it's just self-righteous judgment.
Flamilies Are Forever™ tho, amirite?
There's nothing like any sort of formal boundaries that I know of. We just basically don't get together as a family unless some MORmON milestone is in the works. So of course, not everyone shows up for those, and when the non-believers don't show, the believers toss around loads of MORmON platitudes to feel better that the non-believers aren't there? I'm not exactly sure why that happens. Thus my "feel better" question. Maybe it's just self-righteous judgment.
Flamilies Are Forever™ tho, amirite?
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus
IDKSAF -RubinHighlander
Gave up who I am for who you wanted me to be...
IDKSAF -RubinHighlander
Gave up who I am for who you wanted me to be...
Re: Estrangement
Our disaffection?slavereeno wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 12:15 pm Sorry to hear that you are feeling estranged. That sucks.
DW has gone to lengths to hide our disaffection from our family. However, there is still some suspicion, so we still get avoided a little.
..we still get avoided..”
Is the wife out now too? Holy cow! That is awesome.
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy
“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga
“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg
“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga
“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg
Re: Estrangement
I'm sorry you have to deal with all of this on top of everything else, Thoughtful.
This is my family too. It is at least a 2-day drive to visit family. My parents refuse to fly to they only make the trip maybe once a year. Often they will drive for two days to get here late at night, stay for two days, then drive for two days to get home to teach a sunbeam lesson. Their own grandchildren are here and only see them roughly 5 days a year total, but those sunbeams can't miss a Sunday.
Well, I'm better than dirt! Ah, well... most kinds of dirt; not that fancy store-bought dirt; that stuff is loaded with nutrients. I can't compete with that stuff. -Moe Sizlack
Re: Estrangement
Oh, dear... My brain is slightly hesitant to jack up Thoughtful's thread with my MORmON baggage, but my fluffy fingers have a mind of their own.græy wrote: ↑Thu Dec 17, 2020 8:03 am I'm sorry you have to deal with all of this on top of everything else, Thoughtful.
This is my family too. It is at least a 2-day drive to visit family. My parents refuse to fly to they only make the trip maybe once a year. Often they will drive for two days to get here late at night, stay for two days, then drive for two days to get home to teach a sunbeam lesson. Their own grandchildren are here and only see them roughly 5 days a year total, but those sunbeams can't miss a Sunday.
Let me preface this by saying that my parents spent their entire lives in fairly small towns. The vast majority of their lives in small-town Utah. In other words: They're scared of the "Big City."
Well, guess what? The vast majority of their kids ended up in "Big Cities." My parents were never further than a long day's drive away from their kids, but even a 2-3 hour drive was too much. (Unless of course there was a MORmON milestone to "celebrate", but they even missed a few of those. A trip for a "Visit"? Never.)
Moving anywhere closer to any of their kids was never an option. BUT... When LD$-Inc. needed to extract a bit more flesh from my parents, they could live in BIG, downtown Salt Lake City for the "opportunity" to pay to serve The Corporation™ doing "Family History" schtuff for a year or two. The kicker for me: I was living in Sandy UT during my parent's Mission. I literally couldn't get them to drive ~15 miles from SLC to my place in Sandy for Sunday dinner with the kids & grandkids. I guarantee that if they had needed to dive 15 miles to "go to church," or a Polygamy Palace, they would have made that "sacrifice" in an instant. That was when I literally gave up at furthering/feeding my relationship with my parents, or even caring if my kids knew their grandparents on "my side" of the family.
So, in my best whiny-fluffy voice, I pull my Fallacy of Relative Privation card and type: "It coulda' been worse." Be glad that your parents will make a two-day drive once in a while to see their grandkids, my parents couldn't even drive ~15 miles to see their grandkids.
[/End Whiny Thread-Jack-Rant]
Edit: Spelling, of course!
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus
IDKSAF -RubinHighlander
Gave up who I am for who you wanted me to be...
IDKSAF -RubinHighlander
Gave up who I am for who you wanted me to be...
Re: Estrangement
I know your estrangement is more than the apostate shunning that goes on in so many Mormon families.Thoughtful wrote: ↑Tue Dec 15, 2020 7:45 pm I know I'm not the only one informally estranged from certain family members.
However, it's anyone formally estranged from specific relatives within a big old ugly Mormon dynasty?
Did you set boundaries with other family members regarding events where you'll both be present/ invited to? Do you tell others in the family that you've discontinued a relationship?
What has worked for you?
Best practices?
We just learned of more layers of generational trauma and are just, done. But want to do it in the way that will hopefully preserve relationships with family members that we do value.
I pretty much just muddled through. But then my mother was still with the jerk, but didn’t pretend that the abuse didn’t happen. So, I wanted contact with her, but she shared a house with the abuser. There was only a couple of years that I did not want to be at any family function that he was going to be to, and I was not protecting children, so there are some important differences. Where you family has kind of taken the abuser’s side, it makes it hard to keep any of them in your life. On the other hand, I had some resentments toward innocent family members because they were favored. Not their fault that Mom treated boys way different than girls and being boys they got no sexual abuse, but I still hated them for it.
With my situation, my siblings didn’t know why I was refusing to go to family events, and I didn’t feel it was fair to say, “him or me.” But your situation is different, so I think it is fair to handle it different. I think it is fair of you to tell the relatives why you refuse to be around an abusive person, and then just stay away from the big family events he will be at.
As far as maintaining relationships with those you want to maintain a good relationship with, don’t ask them to choose sides. Just ask that they understand and accept your choice, then try to find ways to spend time with them away from the big family group. Invite them for supper at your place. Or to visit. Go visit them at their home. Do a trip together. Find ways other than family events to be with them. Make your relationship with them independent of family ties.
Good luck with this. It is so much easier for me now that my parents are dead, even though the siblings have their own families.
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Re: Estrangement
Thanks..."he" is incarcerated, pending trial. Unfortunately there's more now, more perpetrators we've become aware of, more higher level (highest level?) cover ups, and Spouseman holding the line has turned overt aggression on him from people with everything to lose and a long history of getting their way. The grooming over the last 50+ years means the people we like/ tolerate cannot conceptualize the reality. We will have to leave it all behind, I think. I'm not sure I thought it could be worse than it was 2 years ago, but...alas wrote: ↑Thu Dec 17, 2020 3:49 pmI know your estrangement is more than the apostate shunning that goes on in so many Mormon families.Thoughtful wrote: ↑Tue Dec 15, 2020 7:45 pm I know I'm not the only one informally estranged from certain family members.
However, it's anyone formally estranged from specific relatives within a big old ugly Mormon dynasty?
Did you set boundaries with other family members regarding events where you'll both be present/ invited to? Do you tell others in the family that you've discontinued a relationship?
What has worked for you?
Best practices?
We just learned of more layers of generational trauma and are just, done. But want to do it in the way that will hopefully preserve relationships with family members that we do value.
I pretty much just muddled through. But then my mother was still with the jerk, but didn’t pretend that the abuse didn’t happen. So, I wanted contact with her, but she shared a house with the abuser. There was only a couple of years that I did not want to be at any family function that he was going to be to, and I was not protecting children, so there are some important differences. Where you family has kind of taken the abuser’s side, it makes it hard to keep any of them in your life. On the other hand, I had some resentments toward innocent family members because they were favored. Not their fault that Mom treated boys way different than girls and being boys they got no sexual abuse, but I still hated them for it.
With my situation, my siblings didn’t know why I was refusing to go to family events, and I didn’t feel it was fair to say, “him or me.” But your situation is different, so I think it is fair to handle it different. I think it is fair of you to tell the relatives why you refuse to be around an abusive person, and then just stay away from the big family events he will be at.
As far as maintaining relationships with those you want to maintain a good relationship with, don’t ask them to choose sides. Just ask that they understand and accept your choice, then try to find ways to spend time with them away from the big family group. Invite them for supper at your place. Or to visit. Go visit them at their home. Do a trip together. Find ways other than family events to be with them. Make your relationship with them independent of family ties.
Good luck with this. It is so much easier for me now that my parents are dead, even though the siblings have their own families.
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Re: Estrangement
Thank you. This sounds like my side. My folks have taken it all better than I thought. I finally told them we are out and having that elephant in the room gone has been good.slavereeno wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 12:15 pm Sorry to hear that you are feeling estranged. That sucks.
DW has gone to lengths to hide our disaffection from our family. However, there is still some suspicion, so we still get avoided a little.
-
- Posts: 1162
- Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:54 pm
Re: Estrangement
græy wrote: ↑Thu Dec 17, 2020 8:03 am I'm sorry you have to deal with all of this on top of everything else, Thoughtful.
This is my family too. It is at least a 2-day drive to visit family. My parents refuse to fly to they only make the trip maybe once a year. Often they will drive for two days to get here late at night, stay for two days, then drive for two days to get home to teach a sunbeam lesson. Their own grandchildren are here and only see them roughly 5 days a year total, but those sunbeams can't miss a Sunday.
Thank you. The priorities sting, don't they?
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Re: Estrangement
Share away! No one's circumstance is identical. I appreciate the solidarity and the thoughts.wtfluff wrote: ↑Thu Dec 17, 2020 11:55 amOh, dear... My brain is slightly hesitant to jack up Thoughtful's thread with my MORmON baggage, but my fluffy fingers have a mind of their own.græy wrote: ↑Thu Dec 17, 2020 8:03 am I'm sorry you have to deal with all of this on top of everything else, Thoughtful.
This is my family too. It is at least a 2-day drive to visit family. My parents refuse to fly to they only make the trip maybe once a year. Often they will drive for two days to get here late at night, stay for two days, then drive for two days to get home to teach a sunbeam lesson. Their own grandchildren are here and only see them roughly 5 days a year total, but those sunbeams can't miss a Sunday.
Let me preface this by saying that my parents spent their entire lives in fairly small towns. The vast majority of their lives in small-town Utah. In other words: They're scared of the "Big City."
Well, guess what? The vast majority of their kids ended up in "Big Cities." My parents were never further than a long day's drive away from their kids, but even a 2-3 hour drive was too much. (Unless of course there was a MORmON milestone to "celebrate", but they even missed a few of those. A trip for a "Visit"? Never.)
Moving anywhere closer to any of their kids was never an option. BUT... When LD$-Inc. needed to extract a bit more flesh from my parents, they could live in BIG, downtown Salt Lake City for the "opportunity" to pay to serve The Corporation™ doing "Family History" schtuff for a year or two. The kicker for me: I was living in Sandy UT during my parent's Mission. I literally couldn't get them to drive ~15 miles from SLC to my place in Sandy for Sunday dinner with the kids & grandkids. I guarantee that if they had needed to dive 15 miles to "go to church," or a Polygamy Palace, they would have made that "sacrifice" in an instant. That was when I literally gave up at furthering/feeding my relationship with my parents, or even caring if my kids knew their grandparents on "my side" of the family.
So, in my best whiny-fluffy voice, I pull my Fallacy of Relative Privation card and type: "It coulda' been worse." Be glad that your parents will make a two-day drive once in a while to see their grandkids, my parents couldn't even drive ~15 miles to see their grandkids.
[/End Whiny Thread-Jack-Rant]
Edit: Spelling, of course!
Re: Estrangement
Maybe it is time to decide that big family gatherings like weddings and funerals are out because there are just too many toxic people there. Then go through the relatives one by one and decide which ones you want to maintain a relationship with, which are toxic, and who are attached to someone toxic, and who isn’t worth bothering with. Then figure out how to stay in contact with the few who are worth it. For me that is only my younger brother and sister. All others have been let go.Thoughtful wrote: ↑Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:16 pmThanks..."he" is incarcerated, pending trial. Unfortunately there's more now, more perpetrators we've become aware of, more higher level (highest level?) cover ups, and Spouseman holding the line has turned overt aggression on him from people with everything to lose and a long history of getting their way. The grooming over the last 50+ years means the people we like/ tolerate cannot conceptualize the reality. We will have to leave it all behind, I think. I'm not sure I thought it could be worse than it was 2 years ago, but...alas wrote: ↑Thu Dec 17, 2020 3:49 pmI know your estrangement is more than the apostate shunning that goes on in so many Mormon families.Thoughtful wrote: ↑Tue Dec 15, 2020 7:45 pm I know I'm not the only one informally estranged from certain family members.
However, it's anyone formally estranged from specific relatives within a big old ugly Mormon dynasty?
Did you set boundaries with other family members regarding events where you'll both be present/ invited to? Do you tell others in the family that you've discontinued a relationship?
What has worked for you?
Best practices?
We just learned of more layers of generational trauma and are just, done. But want to do it in the way that will hopefully preserve relationships with family members that we do value.
I pretty much just muddled through. But then my mother was still with the jerk, but didn’t pretend that the abuse didn’t happen. So, I wanted contact with her, but she shared a house with the abuser. There was only a couple of years that I did not want to be at any family function that he was going to be to, and I was not protecting children, so there are some important differences. Where you family has kind of taken the abuser’s side, it makes it hard to keep any of them in your life. On the other hand, I had some resentments toward innocent family members because they were favored. Not their fault that Mom treated boys way different than girls and being boys they got no sexual abuse, but I still hated them for it.
With my situation, my siblings didn’t know why I was refusing to go to family events, and I didn’t feel it was fair to say, “him or me.” But your situation is different, so I think it is fair to handle it different. I think it is fair of you to tell the relatives why you refuse to be around an abusive person, and then just stay away from the big family events he will be at.
As far as maintaining relationships with those you want to maintain a good relationship with, don’t ask them to choose sides. Just ask that they understand and accept your choice, then try to find ways to spend time with them away from the big family group. Invite them for supper at your place. Or to visit. Go visit them at their home. Do a trip together. Find ways other than family events to be with them. Make your relationship with them independent of family ties.
Good luck with this. It is so much easier for me now that my parents are dead, even though the siblings have their own families.
It gets easier as you get older and the ties to parents are further in the rear view mirror.
Re: Estrangement
In anticipation of upcoming gatherings, and with a little help, this list was developed:
how to diffuse conflict:
#1 show love,
#2 divert conversation to something non-confrontational about them, people enjoy talking about themselves. What projects they are working on, how great their kids are, how nice their house is etc. (I actually bought one of those table-top conversation starter card sets, and will pull a card out to start a new conversation when needed)
#3 Provide more than ample amounts of high-quality food to prevent "hangry"
#4 Set healthy boundaries when needed with a simple statement such as "I know where you stand, and you know where I stand. We're not going to change each other's minds. Let's talk about something else."
It happens in all families, not just Mormons, and it usually just takes time. Last Christmas I was able to get everyone together (including lesbian Aunt and her wife) for dinner.
My grandmother died - she was the one to stand up for my homosexual cousin and his husband. This sweet couple - been together 25+ years now, would send flowers to my grandmother for all holidays etc. This year, after grandma's death, my cousin sent flowers to my mom (who is very religious, and still silent on some issues). My mom feels like she needs to be the new grandmother so we will see how this goes.
Speaking of which, I should write an "I love you guys, might not agree with you, but love you" letter as of now. I always leave the door open, up to them to decide when they are comfortable being together or not.
how to diffuse conflict:
#1 show love,
#2 divert conversation to something non-confrontational about them, people enjoy talking about themselves. What projects they are working on, how great their kids are, how nice their house is etc. (I actually bought one of those table-top conversation starter card sets, and will pull a card out to start a new conversation when needed)
#3 Provide more than ample amounts of high-quality food to prevent "hangry"
#4 Set healthy boundaries when needed with a simple statement such as "I know where you stand, and you know where I stand. We're not going to change each other's minds. Let's talk about something else."
It happens in all families, not just Mormons, and it usually just takes time. Last Christmas I was able to get everyone together (including lesbian Aunt and her wife) for dinner.
My grandmother died - she was the one to stand up for my homosexual cousin and his husband. This sweet couple - been together 25+ years now, would send flowers to my grandmother for all holidays etc. This year, after grandma's death, my cousin sent flowers to my mom (who is very religious, and still silent on some issues). My mom feels like she needs to be the new grandmother so we will see how this goes.
Speaking of which, I should write an "I love you guys, might not agree with you, but love you" letter as of now. I always leave the door open, up to them to decide when they are comfortable being together or not.
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson
Re: Estrangement
I have 3 incarcerated in my family, and others that could be.... Stake president convo - is it genetic? Not sure, but some abuse victims rationalize it, and then allow the cycle to continue. Abused by dad = ok with son being an abuser. Another abused by dad = ok with husband abusing kids (still married to him rather than break their vows - will not go into details on the kids...)Thoughtful wrote: ↑Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:16 pm
Thanks..."he" is incarcerated, pending trial. Unfortunately there's more now, more perpetrators we've become aware of, more higher level (highest level?) cover ups, and Spouseman holding the line has turned overt aggression on him from people with everything to lose and a long history of getting their way. The grooming over the last 50+ years means the people we like/ tolerate cannot conceptualize the reality. We will have to leave it all behind, I think. I'm not sure I thought it could be worse than it was 2 years ago, but...
It sucks.
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson
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- Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:54 pm
Re: Estrangement
Angel wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:55 pmI have 3 incarcerated in my family, and others that could be.... Stake president convo - is it genetic? Not sure, but some abuse victims rationalize it, and then allow the cycle to continue. Abused by dad = ok with son being an abuser. Another abused by dad = ok with husband abusing kids (still married to him rather than break their vows - will not go into details on the kids...)Thoughtful wrote: ↑Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:16 pm
Thanks..."he" is incarcerated, pending trial. Unfortunately there's more now, more perpetrators we've become aware of, more higher level (highest level?) cover ups, and Spouseman holding the line has turned overt aggression on him from people with everything to lose and a long history of getting their way. The grooming over the last 50+ years means the people we like/ tolerate cannot conceptualize the reality. We will have to leave it all behind, I think. I'm not sure I thought it could be worse than it was 2 years ago, but...
It sucks.
Indeed. I'm sorry.
Re: Estrangement
I have honestly wondered if it is partly genetic. My grandfather was abusive. All evidence says he was sexually abusive of his oldest daughter, and then she got her younger sister out of that house when that aunt was a fairly young teen. But no one ever said. And from my grandmothers stories and my dad’s stories, I know he was physically abusive to the point that he came within inches of killing or maiming my dad. And my father was sexually abusive, but never physically abusive to the kids, but he was physically abusive to mom.Thoughtful wrote: ↑Thu Dec 31, 2020 8:27 pmAngel wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:55 pmI have 3 incarcerated in my family, and others that could be.... Stake president convo - is it genetic? Not sure, but some abuse victims rationalize it, and then allow the cycle to continue. Abused by dad = ok with son being an abuser. Another abused by dad = ok with husband abusing kids (still married to him rather than break their vows - will not go into details on the kids...)Thoughtful wrote: ↑Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:16 pm
Thanks..."he" is incarcerated, pending trial. Unfortunately there's more now, more perpetrators we've become aware of, more higher level (highest level?) cover ups, and Spouseman holding the line has turned overt aggression on him from people with everything to lose and a long history of getting their way. The grooming over the last 50+ years means the people we like/ tolerate cannot conceptualize the reality. We will have to leave it all behind, I think. I'm not sure I thought it could be worse than it was 2 years ago, but...
It sucks.
Indeed. I'm sorry.
It runs in families, and so does a tendency to either psychopathic personality disorder and schizophrenia. Many abusers show some traits of PPD, but not the full blown personality disorder. And what makes the difference between the child who grows up determined to be a better parent after abuse, and the child who repeats the abuse into the next generation?
- slavereeno
- Posts: 1247
- Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:30 am
- Location: QC, AZ
Re: Estrangement
Yeah, I try to avoid telling her story for her, but essentially DW, and all our kids are out now. Probably the main reason I have been so apathetic posting on here. We are still keeping up appearances in the ward (sorta?) though, whatever that means during covid.Red Ryder wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:18 pmOur disaffection?slavereeno wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 12:15 pm Sorry to hear that you are feeling estranged. That sucks.
DW has gone to lengths to hide our disaffection from our family. However, there is still some suspicion, so we still get avoided a little.
..we still get avoided..”
Is the wife out now too? Holy cow! That is awesome.
Love all you all, don't know how I would have managed the past 3 years without NOM.