Sexism of exmormon men

[2bizE]

There has been a bunch of hubub recently by Lindsay Hansen Park about sexism from ExMormon men.
She wrote this letter about it:
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/yearofpol ... ut-sexism/

I’m a man. Not ExMormon. I read most of this and it was extremely difficult to read and difficult to understand. I still have no idea what she is ranting about. My man brain couldn’t even process it....my mind tunes out like listening to a GC talk.
Can someone translate this?

[Red Ryder]

She’s saying “Stop being an A-hole”, 2biz!

Call out culture makes a great product when you’re out of new internet material? doesn’t it?

I know that’s low hanging fruit to say that.

I read this part and just pictured a crowded space of toy’s on a shelf, getting pushed closer together to make room for another favorite toy. Then when the door shuts and the lights go off all the other toys come to life clamoring to reassert their position.

But we are not all hurt in the same ways. My trans friends carry wounds I have avoided. My LGBTQ+ friends will suffer in ways I can’t speak to. My black Mormon friends have a very specific kind of wound that I will never have to endure. My friends of color, especially our native friends, carry generational wounds that are more real and more gaping than I will ever, ever know. So, too, do those of us who lived as women in Mormonism.

It is real. Our pain does not diminish your pain. But men, you have to hear me on this: you were part of our pain.

How about recognizing that we all have been hurt somehow and coming together to hold hands and sing “We are the world....”

There comes a time
When we heed a certain call
When the world must come together as one
There are people dying

Oh, and it's time to lend a hand to life
The greatest gift of all
We can't go on
Pretending day-by-day
That someone, somewhere soon make a change
We're all a part of God's great big family
And the truth, you know, love is all we need

Sorry folks, a relative is on their deathbed and I just don’t care right now about anything that sounds like noise.

Humanity ends for all of us eventually.

Let’s make this planet beautiful before we leave it.

[Wonderment]

Thank you for posting this link. She means: Just because people leave the church, it doesn't mean that they stop having thoughts or behaviors that are sexist or racist or prejudiced against other groups of people.
Leaving the church doesn't mean that people automatically lose their biased thinking against others. In fact, sometimes that behavior can worsen.

[Red Ryder]

Thank you for posting this link. She means: Just because people leave the church, it doesn't mean that they stop having thoughts or behaviors that are sexist or racist or prejudiced against other groups of people.
Leaving the church doesn't mean that people automatically lose their biased thinking against others. In fact, sometimes that behavior can worsen.

Thanks Wonderment. I’ve probably been guilty of this in other aspects of my life. Leaving religion has been a pendulum. I swing from tolerant to intolerant depending on the circumstances. I think humans are deeply wired wrong. We are flawed and designed for self preservation at the expense of others. At least until our batteries start to die out. Then we come to our senses and feel sorrow for the wrongs we’ve committed.

It’s a strange dilemma to see this unfold.

[LSOF]

There has been a bunch of hubub recently by Lindsay Hansen Park about sexism from ExMormon men.
She wrote this letter about it:
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/yearofpol ... ut-sexism/

I’m a man. Not ExMormon. I read most of this and it was extremely difficult to read and difficult to understand. I still have no idea what she is ranting about. My man brain couldn’t even process it....my mind tunes out like listening to a GC talk.
Can someone translate this?

You seem predisposed to think ill of the author and her subject matter. Might I enquire why? Or what needs translation? In my view, it seems to be written as plainly as it could possibly be.

[alas]

First of all, this post is stage 3. It started with a post on Exponent II, by an anonymous author who got offended on Reddit when she would post about how the church hurt her as a woman and then got shouted down by several men screaming at her about how men get hurt by the church and how the men’s hurt is so much more painful and important. At least that was the best I could figure out from the poorly written Exponent post by a woman who was so angry as to irrational and lashing out. Bad post.

The men came onto Exponent arguing with her and claiming... I don’t know what they were claiming but the point was they were arguing with this woman about how she couldn’t really have been hurt in the exmo world.

So, that opened up discussions on Facebook, where many many women shared stories of how they have been treated by post Mormon men. And the men show up and argue. Always always the men show up to say how they have been hurt by the church too and that their hurt is more important and real, not imagined like the women’s imaginary hurt.

That led to this post by Lindsay.

That same thing happened on NOM when I first joined. Oh, and it is exactly what “unable to understand” or dismissing it as unimportant because there are bigger problems in the world is bordering on. So guys, women’s hurt in the church or by sexists after they leave the church is real to this woman and it is just as important as your relative dying is to you. If you don’t have time for it fine. Just shut up about how her hurt is unimportant. You had time to say how unimportant her hurt is because you are hurting more. THAT is the Dickish behavior she is talking about. It wouldn’t have hurt you a bit to say, I sorry she got hurt, which takes fewer words that putting her down because you are hurting worse.

Life isn’t a completion between who hurts worse. When someone is hurting, why attack them or claim your own hurt is worse.

Why plead you personal innocence as if it is a direct attack on you? She got hurt by a bunch of men. How hard is it to admit that some men can be real jerks? Why claim you own hurt is so much more important? You have time to come on and read, so you should have time to either say you are sorry she got hurt, or just shut the f up. If you are hurting so bad, go take care of your own hurt, don’t go around telling women that their hurt is not important. Don’t go out of your way to be a dick.

I’ll come back and explain after I kick a few walls and pound my head on the wall.

[Red Ryder]

Point taken alas.

[Linked]

Thanks for the background Alas, I read through the post and had a hard time following what she was trying to say. Your write up helped me better understand the situation.

I thought she worked hard not to alienate the guys that are doing their best to empathize with her and other women. She also repeatedly recognized that we all have our own wounds and have our own need to feel understood and heal. I appreciated that.

I recommend reading through the post, she seems like a very caring person feeling a lot. To help myself follow her point I tried to pick out some of the specific behaviors she is calling out or requesting, I've quoted them below. I agree with my understanding of her points. Listen, empathize, validate. Don't belittle, minimize, or excuse. And for goodness sake don't sexually assault or abuse women.

You started taking counsel from men like Jordan Peterson, Ben Shapiro, and all those other dudebros out there that want to exonerate you from your sexism.

wrt some men finding healing and validation in "dudebro" messages:

It seems so many of you can’t [hold space for the pain of] women who talk about experiencing sexism.

All the times I’ve endured the shitty jokes, the over-talking, the dismissing, the grabbing without asking, and on and on. All the times they wanted to put me in my place. From men that I love and have loved.

Instead of hearing our stories and being so careless with them, you know what I really wish you Mormon men would do? Help us hold it for a while. It’s heavy.

Too many women are the victim of your rage. Too many of us remain receptacles for your shame. Too many of us know what the hard hand of love feels like. Too many of us have been assaulted by some of you because you couldn’t help but want to feel power.

We would love to be able to talk about it, but you have to acknowledge our pain, too. I am acknowledging yours. Will you acknowledge ours?

[alas]

I like to think that NOM is better than most other web communities and mostly it is.

So, now that I have had a chance to get back to sanity, let me talk a little about problems in the post Mormon communities that I have seen.

One that I have never seen on NOM that I have heard about is thinking that after leaving Mormonism, women quit having sexual morals. There are a few bad apples that I have heard of who have used postMo communities as a venue to find vulnerable women to seduce. Transitioning out of Mormonism is hard. Some marriages are struggling and people need support. So, I have heard stories about men taking advantage of the need for support to get close to women. Then using the idea that part of leaving Mormonism behind is to rid themselves of the church’s overbearing sexual control. These guys are sexual predators looking for vulnerable women. So, some of the women are pissed about that. If you haven’t done that, then the post isn’t talking about you.

Another thing women have problems with is that there are just so many more men on these online groups. It makes it hard to get a word in. It means that women’s issues don’t come up very often and that there are more people angry about the distorted history of the church than there are angry about the problem of women being second class. Not anybody’s fault, but it is something that the men need to be aware of so that they allow discussion of women’s issues. If you don’t have anything to contribute, then just don’t bother with those discussions. Everything doesn’t have to be about you. If you want to understand, ask questions. But don’t dismiss the problem while doing so, and don’t assume that women owe you an explanation. We get tired of explaining over and over and sometimes women need the space to talk to other women without the men trying to take over the discussion. So, read until you understand more about what is going on and at least can ask intelligent questions. Don’t make it all about you.

When someone is talking about how something has hurt them, don’t change the subject to how something else has hurt you worse. One person’s hurt doesn’t say that you have never been hurt. It isn’t a competition about who has been hurt the most or the worst. If you find that them telling about their hurt brings up your own pain, but it is a totally different kind of hurt, then find an appropriate place to talk about your hurt. Don’t try to change the subject away from their hurt.

And if you find it hurts your feelings or makes you angry or makes you feel defensive, then look in the mirror. Are you guilty of the things the person is complaining about? What about what they are saying triggers feelings in you. Do you feel attacked as a man? Do you feel they are generalizing to all men, when you don’t feel like you have done anything wrong?

Example, I read someone’s story of how white people were racist and the guy was basically accusing all white people of worshipping Trump. Well, no, I have hated Trump from the first time I heard about his behavior. The guy writing the angry article made me angry because he was generalizing all whites into Trump supporters, not realizing that trump is as much a misogynist as he is a racist and that women have just as much reason to hate him as black people do, and there are black Trump supporters too. He made me angry the same way a racist calling all blacks thugs and rapists would make him angry. But he can’t see his own prejudice. He can’t see how his own behavior is the same as those racists. But I didn’t comment or tell him he was doing the same thing he was griping about. I looked in the mirror and asked myself why he was making me angry, then I found a different place to deal with my feelings. He probably knows if he thinks about it that “not all white people” but right now he is hurting because of (not me) white people. So, I can honor his pain of being hurt without hurting him again. My feelings of “not all white people” are not as important as the real racism he is hurting from. I don’t need to minimize his pain by arguing with him about his failure not to SAY “not all white people.” Once he feels heard, he will see his own prejudice. But if I cut him off and refuse to hear him, I just make it all worse and he stays angry at white people. If I chew him out for generalizing all white people are alike, then I make it about me and my feelings instead of hearing his feelings.

So, guys, don’t make it all about yourselves. Other people have a right to express their feelings without being jumped on. It isn’t always about you.

Now, you guys are usually the best, and I understand that when someone is in pain, it is hard to empathize with someone else in pain, but that is what Lindsay and others are asking. And if you are unable to at that time, then just leave it alone and take of yourself. Recognize that you just can’t deal with someone else’s pain and take care of yourself. Don’t strike out as if their pain caused yours.

[Wonderment]

Thank you for posting this link. She means: Just because people leave the church, it doesn't mean that they stop having thoughts or behaviors that are sexist or racist or prejudiced against other groups of people.
Leaving the church doesn't mean that people automatically lose their biased thinking against others. In fact, sometimes that behavior can worsen.

Thanks Wonderment. I’ve probably been guilty of this in other aspects of my life. Leaving religion has been a pendulum. I swing from tolerant to intolerant depending on the circumstances. I think humans are deeply wired wrong. We are flawed and designed for self preservation at the expense of others. At least until our batteries start to die out. Then we come to our senses and feel sorrow for the wrongs we’ve committed.

It’s a strange dilemma to see this unfold.

RR - I'm very sorry to hear about your relative who is passing away. It seems as if life holds so much stress for everyone right now. What a difficult year in the history of America - and around the world.
Reaching out to all the NOMies and holding you all in my thoughts. Thanks to RR and to everyone at NOM who posts their experience, strength, and hope in getting through life in these trying times. - Wndr.

[Red Ryder]

I don’t want this to be about me wonder.
Alas’ second post made me understand the point of LHP’s post better. I put myself first which inadvertently hijacked the thread and proved the point of LHP’s post. Thanks to all who help me learn. I appreciate everyone here as well.

[Mormorrisey]

Now, you guys are usually the best, and I understand that when someone is in pain, it is hard to empathize with someone else in pain, but that is what Lindsay and others are asking. And if you are unable to at that time, then just leave it alone and take of yourself. Recognize that you just can’t deal with someone else’s pain and take care of yourself. Don’t strike out as if their pain caused yours.

I think a lot of what Lindsay and the anonymous Exponent post is talking about is contained in Lindsay's Facebook page about it, where Lindsay solicited stories of women who experienced sexism in the exmo/postmo world. I don't know if I can post it here, so I won't, but those are the stories people need to read to illuminate the problem. Just some of the nonsense that exmo/postmo women have had to deal with have curdled my hair. It's really tough to read some of those stories, and those are the stories that makes what Lindsay and others are saying very clear.

The only thing I'll add, is that men HAVE gone on these Facebook posts and have tried to argue with Lindsay and others about their own experiences. That's not good, and frankly I don't understand the point in arguing about and invalidating other people's experiences; and I agree, alas, I've seen it very infrequently on NOM. I think many people on NOM have experienced trauma in their own way, and generally we all just listen and have empathy for the experiences of each other. That's all that we can do. Just because I haven't personally experienced sexism in the post/exmo world, and why would I, I'm a straight white male, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist or that women haven't experienced it in the exmo/postmo world. And all of us need to be sensitive to that fact. It's not hard.

[glass shelf]

A large part of my experiences in discussing leaving Mormonism on the internet with males has felt like my opinion was invalid because they see me as not having had a seat at the table that I was banned from sitting at in the first place.

Reddit exmo is rotten for understanding the experiences of women in Mormonism, and female voices are frequently shouted down. That definitely has not improved in the last 6 years. The same men who heavily benefitted from the fact that their wife was a SAHM who sacrificed everything so they could have a successful career and serve in important callings* frequently bemoan the fact that their wife is not still doing more than humanly possible in the home AND holding down a well-paying FT job when she likely barely finished college before she started having kids 10 years ago.

*rigid gender roles hurt everyone, and I'm definitely not arguing that point.

[moksha]

Leaving the church doesn't mean that people automatically lose their biased thinking against others. In fact, sometimes that behavior can worsen.

Like they could go from presiding over women to believing that women are starting forest fires in California with space lasers. They might even have fantasies about bikini-wearing women in space yearning for their new multi-colored ex-Mormon Fruit of the Loom underwear. Let's hope these spacewomen are not merely evaluating these new underpants as potential laser targets.

[Angel]

A large part of my experiences in discussing leaving Mormonism on the internet with males has felt like my opinion was invalid because they see me as not having had a seat at the table that I was banned from sitting at in the first place.

Reddit exmo is rotten for understanding the experiences of women in Mormonism, and female voices are frequently shouted down. That definitely has not improved in the last 6 years. The same men who heavily benefitted from the fact that their wife was a SAHM who sacrificed everything so they could have a successful career and serve in important callings* frequently bemoan the fact that their wife is not still doing more than humanly possible in the home AND holding down a well-paying FT job when she likely barely finished college before she started having kids 10 years ago.

*rigid gender roles hurt everyone, and I'm definitely not arguing that point.

Yes, quiet resentment for being a SAHM and spending $not earned, vs resentment for being asked to help with kids and house when FT+.

Me and DH are doing well now, I do work FT+++. Our kids, as many others, are leaning towards never getting married, never having kids. Part of me is a little sad, but part of me is happy for them. The greatest work is not always in homes, and "purpose" is found beyond family life.

[LSOF]

What does FT mean?

[Red Ryder]

Full time?

Or as Darth Vader would say... Luke I am your “Fa Ta”

[alas]

A large part of my experiences in discussing leaving Mormonism on the internet with males has felt like my opinion was invalid because they see me as not having had a seat at the table that I was banned from sitting at in the first place.

Reddit exmo is rotten for understanding the experiences of women in Mormonism, and female voices are frequently shouted down. That definitely has not improved in the last 6 years. The same men who heavily benefitted from the fact that their wife was a SAHM who sacrificed everything so they could have a successful career and serve in important callings* frequently bemoan the fact that their wife is not still doing more than humanly possible in the home AND holding down a well-paying FT job when she likely barely finished college before she started having kids 10 years ago.

*rigid gender roles hurt everyone, and I'm definitely not arguing that point.

Yes, how could we have an opinion on being Mormon when we were never more than second class citizens while we were in? We were never REAL Mormons anyway. Some Mormon men think that having priesthood automatically makes them more knowledgeable about all things Mormon than women could ever be. They will keep that arrogance as they leave Mormonism, until someone knocks the idea out of their head with a two by four.

An example of this is that just before I decided that Mormonism was toxicly sexist, I was asked to teach the family relations class. There were people ordered by the bishop to attend, but I wasn’t sure who they were. But one couple, I suspected he was abusive, just from some of the wife’s questions. So, one of the classes toward the end was about child abuse. Well, as I social worker, I was trained in this field and did my internship at child protective services, and had worked for Parents Anonymous, then at a women’s shelter. So, I was pretty sure that I knew the subject matter. So, during the lesson, I gave Utah state’s official definition of child abuse. It separates physical discipline from when it crosses the line to abuse. Well, this dude begs to disagree. First of all, he was not disagreeing with me, he was disagreeing with the state of Utah. Second, I was trained and he wasn’t. But he pulled priesthood rank by saying that he was a high priest. The class sided with him because he was a priesthood holder and I was just a dumb woman. Nobody supported me, some class members were quiet and some took his side.

That is pretty sexist, and I am sure that if this guy lost his testimony, that it would not suddenly fix his superior attitude toward women. He would still feel that he knew more about any topic than I did. Because he is a priesthood holder.

So, take one dude like this and put him exmo and online. He would shout down any woman he didn’t agree with, and just like in my SS class, nobody is willing to step up and say, dude, you are out of line, but there will be others who support him over her, just because he is a him. Mormons are trained in this concept that priesthood makes men closer to God and therefore better able to address any and every question. It is just part of the Mormon air we all breath.

And it isn’t just Mormons. Our society is so sexist that it teaches artificial intelligence to be sexist. I read an article on a university admissions program that wanted to simplify admissions and to get away from the human tendency to rate white male applicants higher, and to select for more diversity. It was specifically looking to increase the number of women in Stem programs and in general get more women and minority students. Then it had the AI program go through piles of applicants that were accepted and those that were turned down to teach it to see the things they looked for in students. Well, the program quickly learned that the university was really looking for white male students with good grades and extra curricular activities. It downgraded applicants if the word “women’s” appeared on their application, such as “president of the women’s volley ball team”. It upgraded candidates with masculine vocabulary, such as the use of active strong words and words such as “men’s”. It quickly learned to be just as sexist as the people had been even though they had tried to program neutrality into it.

[2bizE]

There has been a bunch of hubub recently by Lindsay Hansen Park about sexism from ExMormon men.
She wrote this letter about it:
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/yearofpol ... ut-sexism/

I’m a man. Not ExMormon. I read most of this and it was extremely difficult to read and difficult to understand. I still have no idea what she is ranting about. My man brain couldn’t even process it....my mind tunes out like listening to a GC talk.
Can someone translate this?

You seem predisposed to think ill of the author and her subject matter. Might I enquire why? Or what needs translation? In my view, it seems to be written as plainly as it could possibly be.

I don’t think I think I’ll of Lindsay. I’ve been a fan of her work. I just had a hard time reading this long document that seemed to be full of passive aggressiveness from her without clearly stating the problem. Maybe it is my man brain that had trouble. I would have preferred her simply stating that ExMormon men are still sexist because of this, this, this, and this. She instead just went on some meandering wandering ideas that left my mind bewildered.
For example, she indicated that even she doesn’t fully understand some LGBTQ+ issues because she hasn’t walked in their shoes. I didn’t pick up where men were being sexist over this. I personally don’t think I am sexist, but I view the world through a white, male, Mormon, United States viewpoint. My viewpoint is surely full of biases and I’m sure other people have different views, but I really try to be kind and understanding to people. How am I being sexist?

[glass shelf]

What does FT mean?

Yes, FT is full-time. PT is part-time.

I think it's kind of interesting that was an unfamilar abbreviation to you because I assure you that it is commonly used in women's groups when discussing their jobs and life.