Crap

[Linked]

My wife confronted me about drinking coffee today.

I started drinking coffee maybe a year ago. I liked to caffeinate occasionally when I was having a particularly tired day and wanted it in a non-soft drink. I realized that black coffee is a pretty low-calorie caffeine delivery vehicle, and I no longer have any moral qualms with drinking it. I decided to try it. It was gross, but the caffeine was fine and the taste of freedom was delicious.

I started to regularly pick one up in the morning on my early days. I liked it. A good hit of caffeine. A warm cup on a cold morning. The flavor on a good day is actually pretty good. And still that sweet sweet freedom. Something to look forward to every morning.

I decided to try it without consulting my wife. I knew she would be pissed and it wasn't worth the fight. And it's just coffee, it shouldn't be a big deal. Why should I have to consult her like she is my mother about drinking coffee? I decided to keep drinking it cause I liked it. And it still wasn't worth the fight, which would be even worse now.

Then I got sloppy. With coronavirus I am working from home. I still get up and go for a drive, grab a coffee, and listen to a podcast, then come home and get to work. I told her that I like to go for a drive and listen to a podcast and left out the coffee part. But I had to grab a mask so I could go in the convenience store. She put together that a mask means I'm going somewhere, and guessed that it was to get coffee. Pretty sharp!

Now this is added to my list of betrayals. And my list of not telling her things because it's not worth the fight, another betrayal. She found out I don't believe in church anymore when she saw an open email to someone else. She feels like she can't trust me. She sure can't trust me about coffee.

Now she is reconsidering leaving me. Over coffee. Over being lied to. Over me breaking the deal. Over feeling alone when we are together. Over sitting alone at church. Over putting our kids in a situation to have to choose mom or dad is right.

Crap

[wtfluff]

I've got nothing to say that will truly help except: I know the feeling.

Sadly, the bottom line is: It is not "you" that caused this. A greedy real-estate corporation masquerading as a "church" lied to both you and your wife for your entire lives: That's the true root-cause of these issues. If "the church" were actually what it claimed to be, none of us would be here.

Sorry, that second paragraph won't truly help either.

Yes indeed: Crap

FTC

[Red Ryder]

Hot water poured over a bean?

Yup, definitely worth divorcing over.

[Hagoth]

I like coffee. It is one of the healthiest things you can put in your body, along with tea. There is absolutely nothing evil about it. Above all, I am a grownup.

I like sugary breakfast cereals too but I can't justify those arguments for Lucky Charms. For some reason Mormons don't have an opinion about that.

Really, Mormons need to come up for air and see how ridiculous it is to expect people to follow these silly rules when they don't believe in them. They act like drinking bean juice is the equivalent of raping puppies. We get indoctrinated into the expectation that we should be treated like 8-year olds.

[2bizE]

Perhaps a tub of Pero or postum in the kitchen can rectify the situation?

[jfro18]

I'm so sorry - I don't have much to add to the others, but I'm just sorry you're going through it.

I've talked to just a few friends who are "nevermos" about some of this stuff and they really cannot believe it - the idea that a spouse would even feel betrayed about their spouse drinking *coffee* just blows their minds.

Unfortunately that's of no help to us, and if we mention how insane it is they just don't even have the ability to see it.

I'm here if you need anything and I hope things calm down and you can be an adult and drink a cup of coffee without feeling like you're betraying your spouse.

[Linked]

Thanks fam, your comments really mean a lot.

It’s going to be a long night on the couch.

[stuck]

Hey Linked,

Sorry you're going through this. Something similar happened to me also. After she found out she said something to the effect of, "Are you going to file or am I?". Kind of scary stuff. Why do these tbm wives have such a reaction?! Anyway, she went on to say something like, "so you're really going to let coffee and mormon stories be deal breakers in our marriage?" And I asked her the same question. Since then I have tried to cut back and so I am drinking perk hot chocolate which has a lot of caffeine in it. I also drink the mio energy stuff. But coffee is my favorite source of caffeine also. I also bought some more garments and agreed not to listen to mormon stories for awhile. I think she has been happy with this but I told her I won't be going to the temple any time soon. We have been thinking about adding to our family and she wants me not to do these things until we have an "answer" about it. But I told I would need for her to be flexible with me about the church if our marriage and family will survive or stay together. So I think or hope that after this period she will be more okay with me drinking coffee again and listening to mormon stories and such.

I kind of joked with some co-workers that perhaps it's time for someone to start a word of wisdom protest or at least a coffee protest. Because really isn't coca-cola worse than coffee for you?

Best wishes to you,

Stuck

[wtfluff]

... Because really isn't coca-cola worse than coffee for you? ...

Not if you ask Elohim to "Nourish and Strengthen" your 52oz super-mc-duper mug of caffeinated high-fructose corn syrup & additional yummy chemicals...

[nibbler]

Really, Mormons need to come up for air and see how ridiculous it is to expect people to follow these silly rules when they don't believe in them. They act like drinking bean juice is the equivalent of raping puppies. We get indoctrinated into the expectation that we should be treated like 8-year olds.

They really do need to come up for some air.

It's especially crazy considering that if a regular member decides drinking coffee is no big deal they get flamed by the same person that would say that drinking coffee is no big deal the instant after the prophet proclaimed that drinking coffee was no longer a big deal. As a culture we've abandoned the "agent unto themselves" concept in favor of "when our leaders speak, the thinking has been done."

Sorry for being judgmental, but the culture is already primed to take a step forward with respect to the WoW. Get pedantic about the wording in the scriptures, move it back to suggestion. Then the people that continue to adhere to the WoW after the rules are relaxed can fell a little more righteous than the people that don't adhere to the WoW. Win-win.

If they think about it, I think people on both sides of the debate probably think it's silly to divorce over coffee. The argument will shift away from coffee and towards the betrayal, the secret keeping. I can sympathize with the spouse in this department. On the other hand, I ate chocolate Cheerios this morning and I don't feel the need to advertise it to my spouse, it's a trivial issue. On the other-other hand, my tribe doesn't consider eating chocolate Cheerios an exaltation blocking sin. On the other foot, I don't have to go out to the shed to secretly eat chocolate Cheerios.

Nelson likes to change things. Alcohol and tobacco... eh, okay. Coffee and tea... what are you kidding? It's high time the rule changes. I'm not sure what they're waiting on, unless they believe that relaxing a rule would erode the Mormon identity or erode their authority. How many people don't get baptized because they don't stop drinking coffee? I've got to think that the church would experience thousands more convert baptisms per year if the only thing they did was remove the bans on coffee and tea.

[annotatedbom]

Linked,

I'm sorry to hear you and your wife are dealing with this. Trying to have a marriage thrive when one is TBM and the other a former believer can be so difficult at times.

Nelson likes to change things. Alcohol and tobacco... eh, okay. Coffee and tea... what are you kidding? It's high time the rule changes. I'm not sure what they're waiting on, unless they believe that relaxing a rule would erode the Mormon identity or erode their authority. How many people don't get baptized because they don't stop drinking coffee? I've got to think that the church would experience thousands more convert baptisms per year if the only thing they did was remove the bans on coffee and tea.

Nibbler,

I think you hit on the Church's dilemma here. On the one hand, if they relax the WoW expectations, they would make it a lot easier for many to accept the Church and join. On the other hand, if they contradict so many former Prophets on something so obviously linked to Mormon identity, it seems it would likely erode their authority (credibility). In addition, I think the WoW is a very strong lever of control. I just can't see many in the current Q15 willing to give up such a prominent control feature of the religion.

[Linked]

They act like drinking bean juice is the equivalent of raping puppies.

Hahaha, that escalated quickly!

Perhaps a tub of Pero or postum in the kitchen can rectify the situation?

I grew up on that stuff, my mom loved it. But as a kid it was mostly sugar water with a little roasted wheat. I don't think I'm going back in my box though.

After she found out she said something to the effect of, "Are you going to file or am I?". Kind of scary stuff. Why do these tbm wives have such a reaction?! Anyway, she went on to say something like, "so you're really going to let coffee and mormon stories be deal breakers in our marriage?" And I asked her the same question. Since then I have tried to cut back and so I am drinking perk hot chocolate which has a lot of caffeine in it. I also drink the mio energy stuff. But coffee is my favorite source of caffeine also. I also bought some more garments and agreed not to listen to mormon stories for awhile. I think she has been happy with this but I told her I won't be going to the temple any time soon. We have been thinking about adding to our family and she wants me not to do these things until we have an "answer" about it. But I told I would need for her to be flexible with me about the church if our marriage and family will survive or stay together. So I think or hope that after this period she will be more okay with me drinking coffee again and listening to mormon stories and such.

Yeah, it's a terrible situation! The full internalization of church teachings makes a spouse drinking coffee feel like being stabbed in your beating heart for a believer. And keeping church rules after feeling betrayed by the church makes it feel like you are killing your "self" to appease an evil, unfeeling beast who apparently owns your spouse. Holding the line on either side causes massive pain to the other, so discretely breaking the rules and not stabbing your spouse in the heart seems like a good option. Until they find out.

Hopefully your wife is able to give a little!

If they think about it, I think people on both sides of the debate probably think it's silly to divorce over coffee. The argument will shift away from coffee and towards the betrayal, the secret keeping. I can sympathize with the spouse in this department. On the other hand, I ate chocolate Cheerios this morning and I don't feel the need to advertise it to my spouse, it's a trivial issue. On the other-other hand, my tribe doesn't consider eating chocolate Cheerios an exaltation blocking sin. On the other foot, I don't have to go out to the shed to secretly eat chocolate Cheerios.

Hey Nib, I'm right here buddy! No need for the third person.

There is no argument, my wife explodes for a few minutes then retreats back to silence and avoiding bringing anything real up. But her pain will certainly be about me breaking her heart with betrayal and feeling like she can't be vulnerable. She's had a broken heart for most of our marriage. Maybe I'm a shitty husband. Maybe she doesn't have the emotional tools to heal, or the tools to get the tools, or the desire.


ETA - Things have been getting better over the past year. We've worked on developing "our stuff", we run together and have our shows we watch. We got a dog to go along with our 2 kids in November. She has seemed happier and more playful. We even navigated one of her feeling betrayed moments a few months ago with little fallout (it was a misunderstanding and there was no betrayal).

I think one of the things that will help mitigate this episode is for her to see me drinking coffee as insignificant. If my coffee drinking is not a big deal, then the betrayal becomes much less after reconsideration. That goes against her church teachings. Of course, the opposite could also be said, that I need to see that drinking coffee is a big deal, but I reject that wholeheartedly. Which is what makes this so difficult.

[nibbler]

Hey Nib, I'm right here buddy! No need for the third person.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to offend. I was trying to speak more in general terms. This exact same scenario plays out often; be it coffee, alcohol, porn, etc.

It's a tough issue for me to work through. Dropping the third person, your wife feels betrayed by the secrecy. You felt like you needed to hide drinking coffee from your wife. It's crazy the culture drove you to that.

It's like a feedback loop. Your wife's reaction to discovering you had been drinking coffee validated your desire to hide drinking coffee from her in the first place.

It's sad that the church has made such a benign thing taboo. Wasn't the debate over consumption of clean/unclean things settled 2000 years ago?

[Linked]

Hey Nib, I'm right here buddy! No need for the third person.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to offend. I was trying to speak more in general terms. This exact same scenario plays out often; be it coffee, alcohol, porn, etc.

It's a tough issue for me to work through. Dropping the third person, your wife feels betrayed by the secrecy. You felt like you needed to hide drinking coffee from your wife. It's crazy the culture drove you to that.

It's like a feedback loop. Your wife's reaction to discovering you had been drinking coffee validated your desire to hide drinking coffee from her in the first place.

It's sad that the church has made such a benign thing taboo. Wasn't the debate over consumption of clean/unclean things settled 2000 years ago?

My bad. I'm a little touchy right now so I missed the generalness, sorry.

Your analysis is spot on. I don't want to tell her because I worry she will get angry and silent (I would love to tell her if she were interested, or at least neutral). Then she gets angry and silent when she finds out I didn't tell her. Then I feel more pressure not to show her anything about myself that I think she won't like. And she feels like I'm hiding things from her. I'm sure this plays out a lot in many relationships...

[Red Ryder]

If he’s drinking coffee in secret, what else is he hiding?

Alcohol?
Porn?
A comic book collection?
A girlfriend?
A LEGO set he wasn’t going to buy?
A polygamist wife?

That’s the thought process our TBM spouses go through. Just be honest and upfront. Let her know the prophet hasn’t authorized a second wife yet and no flaming angel swords have been drawn.

[wtfluff]

...
I'm sure this plays out a lot in many relationships...

Damned if you do; Damned if you don't. Once again, I know the feeling. Being up-front and honest causes strife. Being dishonest ("keeping secrets") about seed/bean-infusion drinking (as an example) causes strife. What's a normal human being to do?



Which brings me to:

It's crazy the culture drove you to that.

Does this sort of thing play out in all marriage-type relationships; Or is it more prevalent within high-demand organizations like those of us who frequent this website have dealt with?



Seems to me the unrealistic/impossible expectations built into MORmONism seem to be a cause of this sort of behavior; and I'm not just referring to "mixed faith" relationships. (Or maybe it's just me...)

[alas]

I have been out, all the way out for over 10 years now. Before that though my husband saw 20 years or so of struggle to make the church work for me. Finally I told him that for me, the church is not “true” not in the factual sense of the word, but like your spouse is true to you. I told him that the way the church treated blacks for years, the way it treats gays, the way it treats women, the way it treated me as a survivor of childhood sexual abuse does not bring me closer to God. It makes me hate god, therefore it cannot be “the church of Jesus Christ” because no church run by Jesus Christ would make anybody feel like God hates them because of who they are.

Not one word of argument. I think he accepts it because he saw it. He saw the church mollycoddle my abusive father and treat me like I had the plague. He couldn’t argue because he knew I was correct.

So, he has no expectation I will try again with the church, any more than he expected me to let my father babysit our kids.

He says he knows God will be fair, and if that means certain church leaders are in hot water with God, so be it. He is on my side, not the side of church leaders who think child sexual abuse hurts the perpetrator more than anyone else, so they pour out love on the a**h*** while turning their backs on the victims.

So, my situation is different and I have been thinking about how I could add anything to this thread. But some things are common to all who leave the church. So, somehow getting your spouse to see things through your eyes is what is necessary.

So, this is all in general and not specific to one person because it is what I see that we all have in common.

Your spouse needs to see and accept “why”. Whatever your “why” is. Like with me, it was that the church is not good for me emotionally. He saw that. Then I told him and he was able to accept it.

So, for a lot of you it is going to be “truth.” The church was started by a con man telling a bunch of lies and it continues to tell these lies. Boy, those words are going to backfire. So, you need to find words your spouse can accept. Make it about you, not the lies. Something along the lines of, “I need a view of reality that fits together, logically, with all the facts lining up. God knows this about me, cause God made me.”

Your spouse needs to know you did your best to figure out how to be a good honest person. This idea goes directly in the face of the big lie the church tells its members. The church tells people that anyone who honestly investigates the church will see it is TRUE. But that is a bigger lie than trump winning the election. The truth is that the more you investigate, the more you see that the church is not what it claims. But how do you get you spouse past the big lie?

This is where some couples have a big advantage if they are willing to investigate the church’s truth claims together as a couple. Then each spouse sees the effort to find truth that the other person puts in. Factual truth has to matter to your spouse, or you have to explain to your spouse that while real truth may not matter to them, it matters to you. Some people really don’t care if the church is factually true. Them wanting and believing it is true is all that matters for them to enjoy all the social perks. Other people really need it to be factually correct. Your spouse needs to know that you need it to be factually correct and you have investigated as best you can and it is not.

They don’t need to understand your journey, but they need to see it. So, let them see you studying church history. Invite them to study with you.

Don’t lie about the stupid stuff. I know, water under the bridge, but repent. Drinking coffee is the stupid stuff. Her being upset isn’t about the coffee, it is about trust. Can they trust you? Not if you do things behind their backs or lie about it. They won’t think you are honest about the big things if they catch you doing stuff behind their backs or lying about little stuff. So, if you want their trust, earn it. If you have screwed up, apologize and promise not to ever do that again. You want their trust, so earn it by being 100% honest about your journey. Don’t lie or go behind their back or you lose trust. It isn’t about the coffee, it is about trust. How many times should I repeat this?

Your spouse isn’t your mother and you aren’t a kid. Your spouse is your equal and your relationship isn’t about avoiding getting caught. Earn their trust and they will believe you when you say that the church doesn’t work for you, and you have studied and it still isn’t working for you. But if they can’t trust you, no wonder they think you are being evil about your attitude toward the church. Act like a wicked apostate and they will treat you like a wicked apostate. Act like you are honestly trying to be a good person, and they will have second thoughts on the wicked apostate stereotype.

[Reuben]

...
I'm sure this plays out a lot in many relationships...

Damned if you do; Damned if you don't. Once again, I know the feeling. Being up-front and honest causes strife. Being dishonest ("keeping secrets") about seed/bean-infusion drinking (as an example) causes strife. What's a normal human being to do?

When the other spouse is being inflexible about it, not drinking the bean juice is the only option that doesn't result in damnation. Flying to pieces like glass is a tool people sometimes use to get what they want, whether they know they're doing it or not.

Which brings me to:

It's crazy the culture drove you to that.

Does this sort of thing play out in all marriage-type relationships; Or is it more prevalent within high-demand organizations like those of us who frequent this website have dealt with?



Seems to me the unrealistic/impossible expectations built into MORmONism seem to be a cause of this sort of behavior; and I'm not just referring to "mixed faith" relationships. (Or maybe it's just me...)

I would say it's more prevalent with people who tend to think in black-and-white, all-or-nothing terms, and that people often pick those thoughts up from their high-demand religions.

[jfro18]

Not long after I told my wife I couldn't be a part of the church anymore, there was a work party I had gone to. I think it was at a local restaurant so I got home later after dinner and of course at this outing most people were drinking.

I did not have anything to drink, which was more annoying because I just always felt awkward since I didn't believe the church yet I felt like I couldn't have anything even as an adult.

Anyway, that night my wife wakes me up at like 3am and asks if I had anything to drink at the party. I hadn't, so I told her no and rolled back over pretty upset that she woke me at in the middle of the night to ask.

That was a long time ago, and I had brought it up over the last two years as I started the deep dive into church stuff and she swears she doesn't remember doing it.

I don't know how this ties into Linked's issue, except that I always thought she was trying to catch me half asleep to say "yeah I had a few drinks tonight" or something, and I always wondered what would have happened had I had something to drink that night. It really bothered me because I knew she felt like if I had a drink I was totally betraying her, and it bothered me because she didn't have the trust or at least mindset to just ask me.

And I think we all have those moments due to the church and it sucks. It's really hard to accept that people who leave the church no longer have to play by their rules, and the church puts this black and white "not even once" BS on top of everything which just compounds the feeling of betrayal if someone drinks a cup of coffee.

I'm ranting a bit, I know, but reading this thread just brings up a number of times when I've gotten smacked down for suggesting I might have a drink or try coffee in the past and I have always just backed away because what are you going to do? And just like Linked I have had that thrown in my face at times because my wife believes that having one drink at a work event equals being smashed in public... just as most believing members are conditioned to think.

Talking to non-Mormon friends about this stuff is just amazing, because you can see their faces even when they're trying not to say anything. This stuff is absolutely insane.

[Hagoth]

It makes me hate god, therefore it cannot be “the church of Jesus Christ” because no church run by Jesus Christ would make anybody feel like God hates them because of who they are.

They don’t need to understand your journey, but they need to see it. So, let them see you studying church history. Invite them to study with you.

That was very helpful in my situation. Show them that you're putting in the work and really trying to make sense of it. Here's an analogy I heard once that I found useful. Studying church history is like putting a puzzle together, but the more pieces you put in place the less the actual picture looks like the one that is advertised on the front of the box. I spent so many years trying to hammer the pieces into the wrong places to get the picture I thought I was supposed to get. When I finally gave up and just accepted the real picture it all made so much more sense to me.

And here's another.

Elder Holland spoke at our stake conference and addressed his remarks to people who are struggling with doubts. He said it's like falling out of a lifeboat in a terrible storm. What are you going to do, just let go of the lifeboat and drown in the angry sea? No, you're going to cling to the lifeboat with every ounce of strength. You may not be fully in it, but clinging to the boat is the only safety you have. My wife and I discussed that talk several times after I came clean to her about my struggle. Clinging to the lifeboat kept me going for a couple of years before the final thread snapped and I had to let go. I told Mrs. Hagoth about what an eye-opening experience that was. I realized there wasn't a storm at all. It was all the invention of the other people in the boat who were jumping up and down and screaming about how much danger there is outside of the boat, and there I was standing in calm knee-deep water, out of the storm for the first time in decades.