Church supports marriage equality

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blazerb
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Church supports marriage equality

Post by blazerb » Wed Nov 16, 2022 11:47 am

I remember being surprised that the entire Utah congressional delegation supported the "Respect for Marriage Act." You've probably seen that the church has now publicly expressed support: https://apnews.com/article/religion-rel ... e=Connatix.

Many have noted that the church is still asserting the right to discriminate in its hiring decisions. That's true, but this seems to be a huge change to me. I remember being told that we needed to oppose same-sex marriage "or anything like it," which was a message of opposition to even civil union legislation. Then suddenly the church decided that civil unions were ok, if they could just stop marriage equality. Now that same-sex marriage is the law and is supported by a majority of people, we can see that the church is retreating further.

I am sure that as people get more used to LGBTQ+ persons living public lives, the relationships that they form will be normalized. The church will eventually have to retreat further, I would guess. It will take too long for me to think that it is being done out of any concern for individuals. It will only happen to try to keep people in the church, as has been going on for the past 40 years.

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RubinHighlander
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Re: Church supports marriage equality

Post by RubinHighlander » Wed Nov 16, 2022 12:50 pm

To me it really feels like TSCC is talking out both sides of it's mouth...again! They want the mainstream popularity and acceptance in the media while still holding on to their bigotry practices. I'm guessing their surveys to members have also helped put the pressure on doing this. How can they support the act of two gay people getting married while their doctrine and policies condemn those relationships as sinful? Just don't have sex and you'll be good to go!

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2bizE
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Re: Church supports marriage equality

Post by 2bizE » Wed Nov 16, 2022 2:37 pm

RubinHighlander wrote:
Wed Nov 16, 2022 12:50 pm
To me it really feels like TSCC is talking out both sides of it's mouth...again! They want the mainstream popularity and acceptance in the media while still holding on to their bigotry practices. I'm guessing their surveys to members have also helped put the pressure on doing this. How can they support the act of two gay people getting married while their doctrine and policies condemn those relationships as sinful? Just don't have sex and you'll be good to go!

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Linked
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Re: Church supports marriage equality

Post by Linked » Wed Nov 16, 2022 3:59 pm

It is difficult to take the church's support at face value after their history of fighting against gay marriage. And their continued harmful rhetoric against LGBTQ+ people.

But the support is probably helpful to get the legislation passed. That throws up some red flags about the legislation more than it shows the church is changing it's colors.
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Mormorrisey
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Church supports marriage equality

Post by Mormorrisey » Wed Nov 16, 2022 8:44 pm

I certainly understand everyone's reticence about the Church's stance on the bill. Hundred times bitten, many times shy. I get it. But as one of the rare Canucks on the board, can I offer some insight, from a country that took care of the issue of same-sex marriage way back in 2006? To me, this is a rather significant step forward for the Church to sanction this bill. And I'm sure they have particular reasons for doing so, that will be shown at some point to be in a self-interested vein. So that I will expect to find out in the future!

But for now, from all I've read in this bill, it's the exact same important compromise that the Canadian government brokered with both LGBTQ advocates and Christian/non-Christian religious figures way back in 2006. Religious groups aren't forced to marry same sex couples, and LGBTQ people have the freedom to marry. Since Canada is a little more secular than the US, it's very easy to do a civil ceremony - and as an added bonus, two of the largest Christian denominations in Canada, the Anglican and United churches, are quite glad to marry LGBTQ couples in their churches. This is the compromise that has held intact for over 16 years, and everyone seems quite pleased by it. So in my mind, seeing how it's worked here, I'm quite excited to see the church support something like this. And trust me, I was a bishop back in 2006, and the church tried to fight the Canadian compromise then, and they lost handily. As they would lose Prop 8 in California, just more publicly.

So I'm quite pleased that the church has learned a little something. Just what, I'm not sure. Other than fighting the inevitable, with things like polygamy, blacks and that priesthood, and now this. Maybe in a few years women will get the priesthood too. Although I'm pretty sure it's going to take another 20 to 30 years for the first LGBTQ sealings to take place in Mormon temples. They're not THAT progressive!

Hell, a guy can dream.
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moksha
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Re: Church supports marriage equality

Post by moksha » Wed Nov 16, 2022 8:59 pm

I think the Church has found that young people are leaving in droves because of Church policies toward the LGBTQ community. That equates to lessened future revenues from tithing loss.
The Bishopric Space Guild of Accountants perceived a slight problem with the tithing flow and demands that the Padisha President Nelson fix it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGqdE1NdMTg

Normally, sending in 50 legions of secretive Kirton McConkie attorneys would solve the problem, but something even more extreme is called for this time...
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Hagoth
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Re: Church supports marriage equality

Post by Hagoth » Wed Nov 16, 2022 9:25 pm

I'm not sure I really understand what it means for the church to back this legislation. For one thing, it's a federal political issue over which the Mormon church has no say and little influence. Secondly, why are they weighing in at all, since they have no intention of performing same-sex marriage and they continue to condemn the lifestyle as unholy and sinful.

I find this statement from the AP article interesting:
As we work together to preserve the principles and practices of religious freedom together with the rights of LGBTQ individuals much can be accomplished to heal relationships and foster greater understanding,” the church said in a statement posted on its website.
Are they talking about healing relationships that they themselves have demolished with their bigoted rhetoric?

Here's another thing. This bill also protects interracial marriages. That was kind of a shock to me, being in an interracial marriage. It had never occurred to me that my marriage could become illegal again, like it would have been a generation ago. But I guess once you start a nation moving backward you have to worry about how much momentum it might gain.
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lostinmiddlemormonism
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Re: Church supports marriage equality

Post by lostinmiddlemormonism » Thu Nov 17, 2022 9:12 am

Hagoth wrote:
Wed Nov 16, 2022 9:25 pm

Here's another thing. This bill also protects interracial marriages. That was kind of a shock to me, being in an interracial marriage. It had never occurred to me that my marriage could become illegal again, like it would have been a generation ago. But I guess once you start a nation moving backward you have to worry about how much momentum it might gain.
As we know the church's track record on these things isn't exactly great...

When Brigham led the saints out of Nauvoo, and the overwhelming number of members were living in the US, they wanted to get away from the USA....now they want to be rabid USA, USA, USA! even though the majority of their members are outside the US.

At one point "the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot" to any white would would mix his blood with the seed of Cain. They maintained this through the entire civil right era. In 1978, well maybe they are ok to get the priesthood, but we still shouldn't be engaging in interracial marriages, by the mid 2000's the church was using interracial couples in marketing and advertising to say 'see? Look how accepting we are'.

Wine? Good. After all, Jesus drank it. Jesus also served it to his apostles. He liked it so much he turned water into wine. Was so ok with his accomplishment that it was recorded (multiple times in the scriptures). In D&C 89 the Lord even instructs the saints to use pure wine of their own make in performing their sacraments. Which of course they did, right up until Heber J. Grant. Then, despite the recorded words of Christ in the scriptures that the Word of Wisdom was NOT a commandment, Heber J. Grant trumped Jesus H. Christ and it became a commandment.

Polygamy was the "eternal law of God" not to be changed or trifled with. It was so important that early church leaders would prefer imprisonment to abandoning "the principle". Enter the Edmunds-Tucker Act and suddenly, the church abandons polygamy posthaste! Perhaps just for self preservation, but you would think that an opportunity like the one presented by this current law to perhaps crack the door for a return to polygamy would be of interest to the church. After all, why would you not want to return to an "eternal law of God?" NOPE, that doctrine has changed!

The temple ceremony was SOOOO important that it needed to be restored by Joseph. Everything else was a corruption. Those of you who have gone through the temple in the past know that it is critical to get every word right. Even one word wrong means doing it over! In live sessions this could be interminable as the actors struggled to remember the exact phraseology. It was so important to get right that they have changed the temple ceremony significantly and fundamentally at least 4 times in my lifetime. Penalties anyone?

So what are we left to conclude? There are only two doctrines in the church that are not subject to change.
  • Whatever the current prophet says is right. It doesn't matter if it makes sense to you. It doesn't matter if it contradicts the previous prophet (I'm a Mormon), and it doesn't matter if it contradicts the written words of Christ himself. Follow the damn prophet!
  • Don''t mess with the money. You can fiddle with little kids and we won't report you to the authorities, but fiddle with the money and watch what happens. Every single change above that would have had a negative impact on cash flow led to change. That means this rule even guides the first. Mess with the Money and the prophet will even override the words of God to protect the Benjamins.
-lost

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Hagoth
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Re: Church supports marriage equality

Post by Hagoth » Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:03 pm

lostinmiddlemormonism wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 9:12 am
...by the mid 2000's the church was using interracial couples in marketing and advertising to say 'see? Look how accepting we are'.
While it was still being condemned in the Young Men's lesson manuals. This is what precipitated my resignation from the Young Men program in my ward.
lostinmiddlemormonism wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 9:12 am
You can fiddle with little kids and we won't report you to the authorities, but fiddle with the money and watch what happens.
My bishop is a very strict by-the-books kind of guy. He told me it has been very clear to him that the money is the thing they care about most. He said, "if I wanted to get excommunicated, the surest way to do it would to be off by one penny in my financial reporting."
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Just This Guy
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Re: Church supports marriage equality

Post by Just This Guy » Fri Nov 18, 2022 7:09 am

Hagoth wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:03 pm
My bishop is a very strict by-the-books kind of guy. He told me it has been very clear to him that the money is the thing they care about most. He said, "if I wanted to get excommunicated, the surest way to do it would to be off by one penny in my financial reporting."

Just a question, and I don't know if anyone can answer it, but how far back does this heavy push for tithing and extreme protectionism for tithing go back? Does it correspond in any way to LDSinc. establishing the Ensign Peak investment fund?
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AllieOop
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Re: Church supports marriage equality

Post by AllieOop » Fri Nov 18, 2022 7:59 am

Hagoth wrote:
Wed Nov 16, 2022 9:25 pm
I'm not sure I really understand what it means for the church to back this legislation.
Hagoth, I haven't read the bill, but I'm seeing things posted online like the quote below:
"I got confused over the same sex marriage bill. I thought it was already legal. My cousin is gay and he got married years ago, so I looked into the bill. Ahhh, it will allow the IRS, to revoke the tax-exempt status of churches that hold fast to traditional marriage."
If this is true, the church coming out in support of the bill is reminiscent of the "revelation" Kimball received back in 1978 ;)




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dogbite
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Re: Church supports marriage equality

Post by dogbite » Fri Nov 18, 2022 12:27 pm

It's about protecting church tax exemption even if they disallow gay marriage on their property or officiation.

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Hagoth
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Re: Church supports marriage equality

Post by Hagoth » Fri Nov 18, 2022 4:26 pm

dogbite wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 12:27 pm
It's about protecting church tax exemption even if they disallow gay marriage on their property or officiation.
That sounds much more in line with how the church operates. It was the reason they got behind housing and employment equality, because there was a clause that specifically exempted them from being decent. They never, as far as I can tell, do the thing that is right or best for anyone except their own organization.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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2bizE
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Re: Church supports marriage equality

Post by 2bizE » Fri Nov 18, 2022 5:38 pm

Sounds like the brethren have ungirded their loins just enough to find some space for LGBTQ fairness…
I wonder if there is space in there for giving women the priesthood….I’m pretty sure Oaks has all sorts of space under his loin cloth to make room for some healthy changes.
~2bizE

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stealthbishop
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Re: Church supports marriage equality

Post by stealthbishop » Mon Nov 21, 2022 8:39 am

One of the only things that is noteworthy here IMO is that the religious coalition of the Prop 8 era has fragmented. The Catholic church did not support this bill (and they are not some little backwater snake handling cult).

I think this is a shrewd move by the church. They get some good PR headlines and optics by breaking away from the coalition but this does absolutely nothing for LGBTQ+ LDS children, youth and adults. It protects the LDS church (and other churches that are anti-LGBTQ+ from the government even though the US Constitution already provides very strong protection for religion IMO. IOW the church has decided to play defense instead of offense.
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Mormorrisey
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Re: Church supports marriage equality

Post by Mormorrisey » Mon Nov 21, 2022 1:42 pm

stealthbishop wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 8:39 am
I think this is a shrewd move by the church. They get some good PR headlines and optics by breaking away from the coalition but this does absolutely nothing for LGBTQ+ LDS children, youth and adults. It protects the LDS church (and other churches that are anti-LGBTQ+ from the government even though the US Constitution already provides very strong protection for religion IMO. IOW the church has decided to play defense instead of offense.
The more I think and read about this, I think you're right, stealth. This was a shrewd PR move, that gets them all the "religious freedom" crap that they want, and at least SOME goodwill in some quarters. But at the end of the day, I think they lose the larger battle on two important fronts. They've lost the LDS freedom forum/alt-right/Trumper/strong conservative folks with any concession to LGBTQ rights - they will never again fully buy in, as long as they think the "world" has infiltrated the church. By the same token, and you're again right, stealth, it offers absolutely nothing to LGBTQ+ individuals in coping with the current church. And it certainly doesn't do much for progressive members who think that LGBTQ+ members not only should be allowed to marry, but be able to be sealed in LDS temples.

Either way, the church is kind of screwed.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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Linked
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Re: Church supports marriage equality

Post by Linked » Mon Nov 21, 2022 5:08 pm

There are parallels with the change in 1978 regarding Black people and the priesthood.

- The change was a significant shift in the institutional treatment of Black people. The shift was good, but what about the many years of bad? And in the case of marriage equality, "practicing" LGBTQ+ people still can't go to the temple, or heaven.
- 1978 was way past time for the change, so while it was the right thing to do the church rightly gets little credit for not being racist.
- Average members had a wide range of views of Black people from very racist to very antiracist, the change in 1978 was a blow to the racists and a boon to the non and anti-racists. That's probably going to be the most positive outcome from the church's support of marriage equality, it is a boon to anti-homophobes who are active TBMs.
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moksha
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Re: Church supports marriage equality

Post by moksha » Tue Nov 22, 2022 4:13 pm

If the Church pledged not to be homophobic, it would be like the first polygamy manifesto: Just for show with no real intention to change.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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LSOF
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Re: Church supports marriage equality

Post by LSOF » Tue Nov 22, 2022 6:37 pm

I heard effusive praise for this bill, but then I heard that the Mormon church approved of it. If the Mormon church approves of a seemingly progressive thing, it's probably not as progressive as it looks.
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Hagoth
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Re: Church supports marriage equality

Post by Hagoth » Thu Nov 24, 2022 9:56 am

LSOF wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 6:37 pm
I heard effusive praise for this bill, but then I heard that the Mormon church approved of it. If the Mormon church approves of a seemingly progressive thing, it's probably not as progressive as it looks.
There's a great Mormon Stories podcast with a panel of lawyers who explain how it is a tiny step for LGBTQ people, but a big win for the church's ability to continue discriminating.

https://mormonstories.org/podcast/does- ... -marriage/

Edited to add link
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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