Can there be an Alma?

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blazerb
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Can there be an Alma?

Post by blazerb » Sat Jan 28, 2023 8:51 am

I just listened to a TBM who said that his favorite BoM story is that of Alma the Younger. He fought against the church and had a dramatic conversion, of course. There was a series written on a TBM blog several years ago about recruiting an Alma the Younger. Clearly the story is important to many members. However, is it even possible for an Alma the Younger to exist in today's church?

An important part of Alma's story is how he uses his experiences as a cautionary tale. It seems to me that today's leaders would never use their life experiences in this way. They hide as much as possible their youthful indiscretions, or even their adult crimes in some instances. Certainly someone who had fought against the church would never be allowed to sit in a position of authority, in my opinion, beyond a very local leader such as counselor in a bishopric or maybe an EQP if they were male. A woman might be allowed be a RSP, I believe. The few members who have left and come back might get a book deal as long as they vocally support the leadership. They might even get to do a few firesides. But I cannot imagine a general church leader who had spent any time in open opposition to church leaders.

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wtfluff
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Re: Can there be an Alma?

Post by wtfluff » Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:57 pm

It would be very interesting to see someone with a "checkered past" actually ascend in to the ranks of MORmON royalty. As mentioned, it's highly unlikely.

They have plenty of semi-celebrities to fawn over who have "Alma" stories: The tattooed MORmON and Tom Christofferson spring to mind for me, and I'm sure there are many, many other's I'm unaware of. (Thankfully.)

Just think about all the made-up "prodigal son/daughter" stories that get spewed from the pulpit. You'd think that if the stories were true, and repentance was actually real, that one of them would ascend the ranks, but alas...
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Hagoth
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Re: Can there be an Alma?

Post by Hagoth » Sun Jan 29, 2023 7:46 am

The church loves Alma stories as long as they can be contained at the ward level. It's kind of like the Telestial kingdom, a repentant sinner can rise so far but they hit the jello ceiling at about the level of Elders Quorum president.

But their stories can make it all the way to General Conference to be used as propaganda by a GA, often with poetic embellishments. But those stories always have a church leader playing the role of the angel. A wayward saint can't claim divine events that upstage those of the High Sheriffs.

The closest modern analog we have to Alma Jr. would probably be Denver Snuffer.

Alma Jr. in today's church would be excommunicated and shunned by Mr. and Mrs. Alma Sr. long before the angel came to him. Then, when he started talking about an angel he would be treated like Denver Snuffer, labeled a heretic, liar, or demonically deceived for claiming revelation when he obviously wasn't worthy of even feeling the HG, let alone getting that special visit from a ministering angel that none of the self-righteous never-strayers so desperately desire but never get.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Ghost
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Re: Can there be an Alma?

Post by Ghost » Sun Jan 29, 2023 11:08 am

Hagoth wrote:
Sun Jan 29, 2023 7:46 am
. . . let alone getting that special visit from a ministering angel that none of the self-righteous never-strayers so desperately desire but never get.
Yes, one element of the Alma the Younger (or Saul) story that I always found interesting is the way he didn't have to "work" for his testimony by exercising faith the way everyone else is expected to.

I guess the faithful answer might be that he was actually putting the church in danger, so it wasn't as much for his benefit as for that of the church, but I don't think it's framed that way in scripture. He got special treatment because he was lucky enough to have his father praying for him. Either way, it casts God's justice in an odd light. Not that divine intervention as presented anywhere else in scripture seems to be particularly fair.

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Hagoth
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Re: Can there be an Alma?

Post by Hagoth » Sun Jan 29, 2023 5:22 pm

Ghost wrote:
Sun Jan 29, 2023 11:08 am
Hagoth wrote:
Sun Jan 29, 2023 7:46 am
. . . let alone getting that special visit from a ministering angel that none of the self-righteous never-strayers so desperately desire but never get.
Yes, one element of the Alma the Younger (or Saul) story that I always found interesting is the way he didn't have to "work" for his testimony by exercising faith the way everyone else is expected to.
Neither did Joseph Smith. An angel just showed up one day. The First Vision story only has him making the very slightest effort: asking a question, which, we're not really supposed to do unless we already know the correct answer. But that story evolved much later than the angel story.

Lehi's method of enlightenment, as I mentioned elsewhere recently, involved wandering in mists of darkness, not white-knuckling the Iron Rod.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Palerider
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Re: Can there be an Alma?

Post by Palerider » Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:11 am

I always thought the Corianton story was awfully accommodating.

Just try going out and shagging a "bad girl" while on your mission now and see if you get a tough reprimand and then get sent back into the mission field.....

I asked my mission president about Corianton and he just said, "Well, Alma was the prophet at the time and he just followed what the Spirit told him."

Lucky stiff....... :?
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

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Gatorbait
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Re: Can there be an Alma?

Post by Gatorbait » Tue Jan 31, 2023 11:33 am

Interesting subject and I'll admit, I was fond of the Alma the younger story back when I believed that the B of M was true.

But still and all, I'm not surprised that the story or one like it is in the B of M because the story is one like Paul the Apostle, the story of the bad boy being changed by an extraordinary event, and then becoming the champion of the cause he was trying to destroy. More than a third of the New Testament is related in one way or another to Paul and his teaching and missionary endeavors. He's quite possibly the greatest missionary of all time.

Why not copy the same scenario? Good enough for the Bible- why not the Book of Mormon?
"Let no man count himself righteous who permits a wrong he could avert". N.N. Riddell

lostinmiddlemormonism
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Re: Can there be an Alma?

Post by lostinmiddlemormonism » Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:07 am

Like so many things, I think it depends on the lens through which one sees the story and then in how that story is related and told. For example.

In Exodus 20 we read the story of Moses and the 10 commandments, written by the finger of the Lord himself upon stone these are clearly important bullet points to remember: Included among them:
-Honor they Father and Mother
-Thou shall not kill
-Thou shall not steal
-Thou shall not bear false witness (lie)
-Thou shall not covet anything which is they neighbors

Fast forward a few hundred years and a family in Jerusalem feels inspired to leave before the coming destruction. Lehi sends his young son Nephi to the high priest Laban. Honoring his father (good job Nephi) Nephi returns to Jerusalem to get the plates that are in the possession of Laban (what was that about coveting?). When he is rebuffed by Laban Nephi cuts off his head with his sword (Oops, there goes that shall not kill thing), dresses in Laban's clothes and pretends to be Laban (Are we bearing false witness?) and then takes the plates for himself and his family (strike 4). Yet, Nephi is a hero in Mormon culture while only batting 20% obedience to the commandments in this story.

Let's look at another Mormon hero. Even Russel M. Nelson. As a prophet, Rusty knows the importance of sharing the gospel and building the kingdom of heaven, but he chooses be disobedient and not serve a mission. He was within 20 feet of a prophet of the Lord when that Prophet commanded us all to "ask a mormon" and create an "I'm a mormon" profile. But Rusty couldn't follow the prophet. He rebelled and did what he wanted to do. Rusty has read both official declaration 1 AND the manifesto and yet he persists in being married to two women and once. But one day, his lighted pen started to work and he repented and became the prophet of the lord. Isn't it wonderful that even disobedient sinners like Nephi and Russel M. Nelson can become the mouthpiece of the Lord?

It is all in the perspective and narrative of who is telling the story. :)

-lost

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nibbler
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Re: Can there be an Alma?

Post by nibbler » Thu Feb 02, 2023 11:57 am

lostinmiddlemormonism wrote:
Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:07 am
But one day, his lighted pen started to work and he repented and became the prophet of the lord.
When Nelson repented did god make anyone higher than him on the org chart die off a little quicker to secure Nelson being called as prophet?

If I were a senior apostle I'd be encouraging my peers to sin a little so god wouldn't cut my days short. Wait... if I were a senior apostle that would mean I was already 90 years old, so it wouldn't be like I didn't live a full life.

I guess when you get up to that level of leadership it's like outrunning a bear. You don't have to be the most righteous, just slightly more righteous than your peers.
We don’t see things as they are, we see them as we are.
– Anais Nin

lostinmiddlemormonism
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Re: Can there be an Alma?

Post by lostinmiddlemormonism » Thu Feb 02, 2023 12:36 pm

nibbler wrote:
Thu Feb 02, 2023 11:57 am
lostinmiddlemormonism wrote:
Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:07 am
But one day, his lighted pen started to work and he repented and became the prophet of the lord.

I guess when you get up to that level of leadership it's like outrunning a bear.
You know what they say about stage managing a grizzly...

-lost

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