Communication skills

This is for encouragement, ideas, and support for people going through a faith transition no matter where you hope to end up. This is also the place to laugh, cry, and love together.
User avatar
alas
Posts: 2339
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 2:10 pm

Communication skills

Post by alas » Tue Jan 23, 2024 8:27 pm

Edited to change heading from since we don’t have moderators to communication skills

Right now I am stuck sitting around a lot as I recover after the fourth blankety blank surgery in the same foot. Can’t walk, the knee scooter I use to get around hurts my knee replacement. So, too much time on my hands and I come up with hairbrained ideas that otherwise I would never volunteer for.

So, here goes with hairbrained idea.

I used to teach communication skills to people as part of what I did for a living. I also taught those communication skills to volunteers who manned a suicide prevention hot line. The people I worked with could be sexual abuse victims, domestic violence victims, rape victims, or even once the child sexual abuse perpetrators. All of these people had a need to communicate better, sometimes without triggering anger in an abusive spouse, or drawing boundaries with their abusive parents or siblings, or talking someone down from suicide.

I also very much care about NOM and don’t want it to go the direction that some other discussion forums such as discuss Mormonism and the old FLAK went and degenerate into political or religious bickering that goes no where. I want NOMmies to learn not to offend by saying something wrong so the point gets lost in what feels to the other like an insult. Or to make the kind of generalizations that are offensive or to bad mouth Mormons in ways that drive off possible new members who are just deciding to stay or go. We need new people, and in order to get new people we all need to watch our mouths and not just sound like angry exMos, or such liberals that we drive possible new members away.

There are some tricks to good communication, and they are good in general, not that I always remember them, but they get especially necessary in conflict situation.

So, I can do this one of several ways. I can put out one a month, so this thread gets long, but stays kind of on the first page. Then we discuss we that idea and how y’all feel about it. One way, I don’t volunteer for is to write up hard and fast rules or put something on the home page or someplace permanent. I am not even sure I would want a sticky on it so it stays on top. I could start several new threads and we discuss each one and then totally forget. I could write up several ideas all at once and then throw open the discussion. I could decide this was a bad idea. You could tell me to stuff it as y’all don’t want me trying to be a teacher here.

So, first step is feedback.
Last edited by alas on Sat Jan 27, 2024 9:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
wtfluff
Posts: 3625
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:20 pm
Location: Worshiping Gravity / Pulling Taffy

Re: Since we don’t have moderators

Post by wtfluff » Tue Jan 23, 2024 9:01 pm

alas wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2024 8:27 pm
So, first step is feedback.
Yes please.

I volunteer as tribute.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

IDKSAF -RubinHighlander

You can surrender without a prayer...

Mayan_Elephant
Posts: 434
Joined: Thu May 12, 2022 4:57 pm

Re: Since we don’t have moderators

Post by Mayan_Elephant » Tue Jan 23, 2024 10:19 pm

alas wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2024 8:27 pm
Right now I am stuck sitting around a lot as I recover after the fourth blankety blank surgery in the same foot. Can’t walk, the knee scooter I use to get around hurts my knee replacement. So, too much time on my hands and I come up with hairbrained ideas that otherwise I would never volunteer for.

So, here goes with hairbrained idea.

I used to teach communication skills to people as part of what I did for a living. I also taught those communication skills to volunteers who manned a suicide prevention hot line. The people I worked with could be sexual abuse victims, domestic violence victims, rape victims, or even once the child sexual abuse perpetrators. All of these people had a need to communicate better, sometimes without triggering anger in an abusive spouse, or drawing boundaries with their abusive parents or siblings, or talking someone down from suicide.

I also very much care about NOM and don’t want it to go the direction that some other discussion forums such as discuss Mormonism and the old FLAK went and degenerate into political or religious bickering that goes no where. I want NOMmies to learn not to offend by saying something wrong so the point gets lost in what feels to the other like an insult. Or to make the kind of generalizations that are offensive or to bad mouth Mormons in ways that drive off possible new members who are just deciding to stay or go. We need new people, and in order to get new people we all need to watch our mouths and not just sound like angry exMos, or such liberals that we drive possible new members away.

There are some tricks to good communication, and they are good in general, not that I always remember them, but they get especially necessary in conflict situation.

So, I can do this one of several ways. I can put out one a month, so this thread gets long, but stays kind of on the first page. Then we discuss we that idea and how y’all feel about it. One way, I don’t volunteer for is to write up hard and fast rules or put something on the home page or someplace permanent. I am not even sure I would want a sticky on it so it stays on top. I could start several new threads and we discuss each one and then totally forget. I could write up several ideas all at once and then throw open the discussion. I could decide this was a bad idea. You could tell me to stuff it as y’all don’t want me trying to be a teacher here.

So, first step is feedback.
I may have written a book about communication, maybe. ;)

Fire your guns. I am interested.
“Not ripe in spring, no standing by summer, Laches by fall, and moot by winter.”

User avatar
alas
Posts: 2339
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 2:10 pm

Re: Since we don’t have moderators

Post by alas » Thu Jan 25, 2024 6:50 pm

Alright, I will kind of aim the discussions at how to talk to your still believing family, since I hope none of you are involved in things like domestic violence or some of the other crap I worked with. :shock:

So, the first part of communication is understanding the other person, so, we will start there before moving how to get the other person to understand you.

So, your dear spouse says something to the effect of, “How could you do this to me? I married a good priesthood holder! Now I am sitting by myself and trying to make excuses to our friends for why you aren’t there.”

And your brain goes immediately to how you are going to defend yourself from this unfair accusation.

I mean, you think you know what she means. She is angry AGAIN that you no longer think the church is perfect. But you feel like you haven’t changed who you are. You think that you just went looking for the truth, and gosh, it looks like the church doesn’t have it. You think it is the church’s fault and you are angry at it, and angry that she could be angry at you. Unfair.

But you have already had this argument before. Ummm, four times now.

So, a different approach is called for.

Rule #1 when you have the same old argument over again, you are not communicating real needs or feelings.

In order for her to feel heard, she needs to know that you understand her feelings.

So, what do you hear underneath her words? What is her emotion? Take a guess and then reflect this back to her.

“It sounds to me like you are ________.”

Then let her respond if you are correct about what she is feeling.

Now, I am going to let you readers take a shot at what she might be feeling. The closer you hit to the correct emotion the better the discussion goes.

Yeah, yeah, I know this sounds kind of silly. But it does a couple of things. One it slows the conversation down. When someone is caught in strong feelings, then can quickly get more worked up. This helps keep them from getting more and more worked up by simply slowing things down. Another thing it does is tell them that you are trying to understand. If you are trying and they see it, they are more likely to try to help the process. It also prevents you from responding to the wrong emotion. If you react like she is angry, and really she is hurt, she will feel pushed away when what she wants is comfort. Also, if you are reacting to the wrong emotion, it is much harder to find a workable solution. The argument will keep spinning with both of you feeling misunderstood.

Also, Exponent II has a series right now on mixed faith marriages. It has some good tips.

If a simple reflection of their emotion feels too weird, you might try turning it into a question. For example, “obviously you are upset about church today. Would you like to tell me what happened, because I do care about how this is affecting you.” This kind of response leads into the discussion and slows things down too. It also says you want to understand. Then after she gives details of what happened, maybe you can work on a solution.

The main thing with a repeated argument is to go slower and make sure you are understanding each other.

So, try some personal examples of real life arguments and suggest some reflective listening examples. Or you can even try some on line kind of examples and how that might work.

Basically reflective listening is reflecting back to them what you hear them saying or reflecting to them how they might be feeling. It is meant to convey that you are listening and trying to understand and ask if you have it right.

User avatar
FreeFallin
Posts: 72
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2016 5:48 pm

Re: Since we don’t have moderators

Post by FreeFallin » Thu Jan 25, 2024 7:24 pm

Thank you Alas. That is very helpful advice.

Mayan_Elephant
Posts: 434
Joined: Thu May 12, 2022 4:57 pm

Re: Since we don’t have moderators

Post by Mayan_Elephant » Thu Jan 25, 2024 8:05 pm

alas wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2024 6:50 pm

“It sounds to me like you are ________.”

Then let her respond if you are correct about what she is feeling.
So, if her feeling was shared as "I am PISSED!", then what?

I agree that there is some value in sending this back to make sure that he understands that she is pissed. However, this is a good place to look at the parts.
By the same token, when someone close to you is triggered, it’s only a part of them that’s triggered, but that part has taken over in this moment. You may react by getting triggered yourself: Where is the person I know and love and rely upon? Oh, shit! Where the hell did she go? This is a scary, triggering interpretation of events. Here’s a better option: Whoa, a part of her is super pissed right now. By seeing her as a whole person co-opted by an angry part, you keep yourself more centered, more able to navigate the situation. This is a gift of awareness. You can change the frame of the situation. Seeing the other person in terms of “parts” is a powerful use of awareness.

When I tell you I’m pissed, I may only be describing a mild feeling, but to you, I may have become “the pissed guy.” The guy you know and love, he’s not there anymore. All that’s left is the pissed guy. I threw the statement out there; you dialed it all the way up, even though it’s not what I meant. Holy shit, he’s pissed! From the top of his head to his goddamn toes, he’s pissed. What if the pissed guy goes full asshole on me? This is not an exaggeration; it’s how our emotions work.

When I wholly identify myself with a single state—in this case, it’s “pissed,” but it could also be “sad,” “afraid,” “indifferent”—it’s intense and alarming. When I identify myself entirely with an experience I’m having in the presence of someone close to me, they lose their human connection with me; it’s as if the person they knew and relied on is gone. If I trigger you, you’re likely to relate to me only as “the pissed guy,” not as the person I am.

When I say a part of me is pissed, I’m communicating more clearly: I’m still here. I haven’t been possessed by, or transformed into, the pissed guy. This is calming to others and to me. Just using this language—again, this is an aspect of awareness—provides me with some clarity and confirms that I’m still there. I haven’t been completely taken hostage by a pissed part of myself. The logic applies both ways: the next time you hear someone say, “I’m pissed,” or when you get flipped off on Highway 1, lighten up. It’s just a part of them.
I agree with the concept. I recommend the exercise. I recommend playing it out in both directions.

In the Alas example, the dude hearing someone's disappointment has to also come to terms with their own disappointment - and do so in parts.
“Not ripe in spring, no standing by summer, Laches by fall, and moot by winter.”

User avatar
alas
Posts: 2339
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 2:10 pm

Re: Since we don’t have moderators

Post by alas » Fri Jan 26, 2024 2:29 pm

So, if her feeling is pissed, then you look further at what event triggered pissed. You can go several directions with pissed. As Mayan’s thing is quotes says, you can look at other secondary emotions. Anger is not a primary emotion. It is secondary to feelings of threat or loss. So, what is the fear, or what has been lost. So, then examine what she feels she has lost, or what she is afraid of.

In the quote, the unhappy wife expresses strong feeling about sitting alone, and having to explain to friends about why he isn’t there.

So, the loss is clear. She has lost his companionship at church, something she felt was promised to her by marrying an active member. This just might be big.

Another possible emotion here is that she is embarrassed to have to explain why he isn’t there. She may feel it isn’t her job to explain HIS behavior and that he is unfairly putting her in an uncomfortable situation. So, not only has she lost his company, but she is now embarrassed herself and uncomfortable being there. She has lost her ability to be comfortable in her community.

Then there is the threat or what she is afraid will happen. What is next? Him mowing the lawn, openly not wearing garments? Him starting to drink? Is he going to become an embarrassment to her in the neighborhood? Is he going to become an alcoholic, a drug addict, a porn addict, a cheating husband? Where does this change in who he is becoming stop? Who is he now? What is going to happen to the marriage?

Once what caused “pissed” is explored, especially the fear and loss under the anger, then there is another Y is the road. What does she want to accomplish in bringing this problem up? This can be a direct question, after a finally “clarifying feelings” question about, “this is what I understand as the biggest problem, and do I understand your feelings correctly?” Then you can move to “what would you like this discussion to accomplish?”

Maybe she wanted you to just understand and not change anything. Maybe she just needed to vent. It is totally possible that once she has vented the anger and been reassured that she is safe in the relationship, it will all be fine and nothing needs to change.

Or she may have brought it up because something needs to change. Then you can start to give her your side of things. Probably some assurance is needed about things like how far into “sin” you intends to go and how the two of you will deal with things. Such as does she get a say in you trying alcohol. The “how we are going to deal with this” is the problem solving step. And we will work more on that later.

So, in the next discussion with your spouse or anybody really, try some reflective listening. It is not just a first step, it is useful all through the discussion. Or, even in your head go through some past discussions and practice reflective listening.

Return and report.

stuck
Posts: 299
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:48 pm

Re: Since we don’t have moderators

Post by stuck » Fri Jan 26, 2024 2:52 pm

Thanks Alas for bringing this topic to our attention. I have heard this before but it's good to get a reminder and especially from someone who has had a lot of experience with it. In our last "talk" I told her that I don't think I could believe in the church again because there were too many issues to overlook. She said that she can't disbelieve because of all of the "miracles" that she and her ancestors experienced. Anyway, had I reflected back to her what she was feeling, should would probably say she was afraid that if I remained an unbeliever that it would drastically affect our kid's lives. As it is now she controls all of the church goings on in the home like scripture reading, and come follow me lessons without much input from me. So it's definitely one-sided. Anyhow, the next big church thing that she is concerned about is my son's baptism coming up later this year. She wants me to baptize him if possible. We are going to talk with the bishop about what would be required of me. I plan to be honest with him and if I don't pass muster then in a way I will be relieved so I can be more honest with my sons and my extended family. If I do, then the "deceit" will probably continue for awhile until my sons ask why doesn't dad have a temple recommend?

User avatar
deacon blues
Posts: 1930
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 7:37 am

Re: Since we don’t have moderators

Post by deacon blues » Fri Jan 26, 2024 4:29 pm

Thanks alas and others for the ideas. I think they will be helpful.
Humility is very important. Especially when it is so easy to go to places on the internet where we can find people who agree with us and give us that nice warm blanket feeling. That is easy communication.
Hard communication is different.
If you're like me and the hundreds of other people I know, your perception is limited. You can be wrong.
If you disagree with someone slow down, just like you would around a construction zone. Be prepared to stop and say nothing.
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

Mayan_Elephant
Posts: 434
Joined: Thu May 12, 2022 4:57 pm

Re: Since we don’t have moderators

Post by Mayan_Elephant » Fri Jan 26, 2024 9:45 pm

deacon blues wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2024 4:29 pm
Thanks alas and others for the ideas. I think they will be helpful.
Humility is very important. Especially when it is so easy to go to places on the internet where we can find people who agree with us and give us that nice warm blanket feeling. That is easy communication.
Hard communication is different.
If you're like me and the hundreds of other people I know, your perception is limited. You can be wrong.
If you disagree with someone slow down, just like you would around a construction zone. Be prepared to stop and say nothing.
Yep. AWARENESS! I am with you all the way on this one. The key here is to not be triggered and give yourself the opportunity to expand your perception. Construction zones and safety are a great metaphor here. Cuz, that safety stuff is not just about you, but you are a key part of it.
Awareness is a “pause for a cause,” the cause being the situation at hand that could use a new perspective, some fresh eyes. It’s the message that goes off in your head, cartoon thought bubble and all, and says: Hold on! Wait a minute. Slow down. Think. I’m triggered, and the way I’m about to react—that’s not the right move.

Awareness lets you observe how you’re thinking, feeling, and responding. Ultimately, it allows you to see the situation from a clearer vantage point. With awareness, you cultivate the ability to witness yourself and halt the automatic reactions. Without awareness, you’re at the mercy of your own automatic trigger-reaction cycle. You are also subject to the automatic reactions of the people around you.

When you’re triggered, the ability to make a rational, well-thoughtout decision, and to think logically, dissipates. The world looks and feels like a very different place, a very dangerous place.

Simply naming what’s happening grants you some perspective. With one modest nod to the condition of your nervous system, you can start to settle yourself: Okay, I’m triggered. It’s that simple. Now you can think more clearly again: I’m okay. What’s the move? First, slow down. My mind is spinning, and that’s only making me more anxious. I can do this.

Identifying what’s true in the moment has huge implications. When you’re triggered, the air raid siren of your brain is blaring—and by air raid siren, I mean your amygdala. This part of the brain uses about two-thirds of its neurons to look for bad news. It’s primed to go negative. Pausing to collect the facts, or the rest of the story, weakens the effect of negativity bias. It gives you new and better options.

Awareness really is simple, and it’s crucial. Stop and acknowledge that the trigger just hit: I’m triggered; triggers are information. A trigger set you off, you’re aware of what’s happening, and now you have options. This is how to break through the automatic trigger-reaction cycle. Awareness really is that simple.
To me. For me. I think that understanding triggers is the step that leads up to awareness. Triggers are just stuff. Just information. When we understand that, we have a shot at communicating.

Great topic, Alas.

There were times in my life where my reaction to someone's disappointment was to take it ALL on. I gotta fix this. This is my fault. Me, me, me, me me me me me me. That is catastrophic - for everyone. Someone else's disappointment sent me into a spiral. Sometimes I broke things. Sometimes I complicated things. Sometimes I shut down and was unavailable. I have tried it all. The only thing that really seems to work - is to look at the situation in parts, to pause, to choose a response rather than react to the triggers.
“Not ripe in spring, no standing by summer, Laches by fall, and moot by winter.”

User avatar
Angel
Posts: 762
Joined: Thu May 31, 2018 8:26 am

Re: Since we don’t have moderators

Post by Angel » Sat Jan 27, 2024 9:00 pm

Great topic.
I do think I'm now on the spectrum - comfortably numb - no feelings. I found my past feelings to be completely false, false trust, false beliefs, false security - my feelings didn't protect, were based on lies, so I have no respect for feelings.

In Tuchkman team formation stages, the storming stage is healthy for a project - better for everyone to be blunt and say what needs to be said, and say it quickly if you want to actually work together effectively in the future.

I took the blunt painful route. My entire family has left the church. I'm still married. It's different for everyone, but cold and calculating - that's what worked for me.
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

User avatar
alas
Posts: 2339
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 2:10 pm

Re: Since we don’t have moderators

Post by alas » Sat Jan 27, 2024 9:09 pm

Angel wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2024 9:00 pm
Great topic.
I do think I'm now on the spectrum - comfortably numb - no feelings. I found my past feelings to be completely false, false trust, false beliefs, false security - my feelings didn't protect, were based on lies, so I have no respect for feelings.

In Tuchkman team formation stages, the storming stage is healthy for a project - better for everyone to be blunt and say what needs to be said, and say it quickly if you want to actually work together effectively in the future.

I took the blunt painful route. My entire family has left the church. I'm still married. It's different for everyone, but cold and calculating - that's what worked for me.
Hey, your feelings were not lies, just based on incorrect information. So, rather than distrusting your feelings, just keep searching for the best most accurate information.

Mayan_Elephant
Posts: 434
Joined: Thu May 12, 2022 4:57 pm

Re: Since we don’t have moderators

Post by Mayan_Elephant » Sat Jan 27, 2024 9:16 pm

alas wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2024 9:09 pm

Hey, your feelings were not lies, just based on incorrect information. So, rather than distrusting your feelings, just keep searching for the best most accurate information.
I agree with this - a lot. Triggers >>>>>> Reactions and feelings. But, when we just look at the trigger as nothing but information, we have a shot at finding better or more information without having a melt down or melt up. 2 thumbs up.
“Not ripe in spring, no standing by summer, Laches by fall, and moot by winter.”

User avatar
alas
Posts: 2339
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 2:10 pm

Re: communication skills

Post by alas » Sat Jan 27, 2024 9:35 pm

I want to change things up a bit and look at reflective listening in an online situation. How is it different when you are reading instead of listening? Well, you don’t have facial cues, you don’t have body language, and you can’t hear the tone and voice inflections. So it is much harder, especially for something where you are trying to judge their emotion and reflect it back. So, it isn’t the best technique. What’s more, on line conversations do not need the slowing down of verbal conflict.

So, for on line, it is probably best to use our next technique which is clarifying. In fact clarifying is very important when you are missing all the nonverbal cues. So, clarifying is when you restate what they just said in your own words. It is less about understanding the emotion and more about understanding the situation.

For example, in the example of the wife coming home from church and she is visibly upset, and does the “How could you do this to me? It isn’t fair. I married a return missionary so that I would have an active, priesthood holding husband. Now I have to fight with three kids during Sacrament meeting and then explain to our friends why you aren’t there.”

So, your reply might be something along the line of, “it sounds like you had a hard time at church today.” That is a very short summary. Then to get more information about what happened, you could ask, “was it the kids misbehaving or having to explain why I am not there, that has you most upset?”

See, how this reflects back about the hard time at church, and then tries to clarify exactly what was the most upsetting.

Or, you could focus on clarifying why she is blaming you for the children’s behavior and the friends asking questions….but maybe not.

Once you know more about the situation, then you know where she might need say help with the kids. Maybe the youngest can stay home with you. Or if she is embarrassed about explaining why you aren’t there, you can tell her a simple thing she has your permission to say.

Along the line of what to tell friends, your spouse really may not want to say something like you have questions, because that puts you right on the project list for ward council. My husband always told my friends who would as, that they would have to talk to me about it. That way, he wasn’t bad mouthing me, or setting me up as a project. And we all know that most Mormons are not going to go to the person who has gone inactive and ask. They are really looking for gossip (even if it is the kind to take to ward council and try to help) sometimes and this gives them nothing. But that was just how spouseman and I solved that problem.

User avatar
Angel
Posts: 762
Joined: Thu May 31, 2018 8:26 am

Re: Since we don’t have moderators

Post by Angel » Sun Jan 28, 2024 7:36 am

alas wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2024 9:09 pm
Angel wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2024 9:00 pm
Great topic.
I do think I'm now on the spectrum - comfortably numb - no feelings. I found my past feelings to be completely false, false trust, false beliefs, false security - my feelings didn't protect, were based on lies, so I have no respect for feelings.

In Tuchkman team formation stages, the storming stage is healthy for a project - better for everyone to be blunt and say what needs to be said, and say it quickly if you want to actually work together effectively in the future.

I took the blunt painful route. My entire family has left the church. I'm still married. It's different for everyone, but cold and calculating - that's what worked for me.
Hey, your feelings were not lies, just based on incorrect information. So, rather than distrusting your feelings, just keep searching for the best most accurate information.
They were lies:

Everything I felt good about, feelings of trust, feelings of comfort, love, safety - that "warm fuzzy" holy spirit - I used to think that feeling really was God saying this is true, these men have authority, this place is safe - those good feelings? Not truth. Not safe. Lies. Just herd bonding - elevation - just your brain feeding itself what it wants.

Everything bad - I used to feel uncomfortable around lgbtq, I used to feel other beliefs were wrong, - completely backwards of what the truth was.

Feelings are false. We can feel love for people who abuse. We can feel hate for people who are amazing and help us.

All the Mormon preaching about "trust your feelings" is wrong.

It is not good to trust feelings. Feelings lie.

Example of better metric - a friend was recently on dating site looking at possible matches. My advice - don't look at picture, look at data. How many times have they been previously married? What ended their previous marriage? Did they walk away from their own kids? If their previous wife is still alive - talk to the previous wife. - data. Gather data on how their relashionship with their kids, on their past relationships - use data.

A few of my best students are on the spectrum too. When forming teams, we talk about it. Their grade, and group work will be better if they can handle working with autistic ppl.

Smiling face, bribery, kind, compliment - those are the ##$ holes who do no work. (and I fail them).

Critical, blunt, not so kind - that is who gets work done and will push others in the group too.

We do have suicidal kids in college, often pressure from parents, in the wrong major. These kids - have to learn to tell their parents "no - this is not what I want to major in". Have to just get them into the right department - get them to admit what they really want. The suicidal depression goes away when they change majors, when they realize they can change, they are in control of their own life, they are their own authority, no need to listen to parents. No following anyone they do not agree with. I don't talk to them about feelings- we talk about what they want, and figure out how they can get what they want.
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

Cnsl1
Posts: 569
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:27 pm

Re: Communication skills

Post by Cnsl1 » Sun Jan 28, 2024 10:32 am

Reminds me of the Mehrabian Study in the 70s, Alas.

When communicating emotionality, it's what... 52% body language, 47% tone, and 7% the actual words? I'm sure I have the percentages off slightly, but that's the gist.

This study has been misunderstood quite a bit, but is particularly applicable to online written communication. How do you communicate emotions or feels online? You don't have tone OR body body language which are the most important parts. Emotives only go so far and most of us older folks don't understand them anyway. And the shortcuts? Good luck with those, right?

ROFLMAO? IKR? POBB?

Clarifying is crucial.

Mayan_Elephant
Posts: 434
Joined: Thu May 12, 2022 4:57 pm

Re: Communication skills

Post by Mayan_Elephant » Sun Jan 28, 2024 11:36 am

Cnsl1 wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2024 10:32 am
Reminds me of the Mehrabian Study in the 70s, Alas.

When communicating emotionality, it's what... 52% body language, 47% tone, and 7% the actual words? I'm sure I have the percentages off slightly, but that's the gist.

This study has been misunderstood quite a bit, but is particularly applicable to online written communication. How do you communicate emotions or feels online? You don't have tone OR body body language which are the most important parts. Emotives only go so far and most of us older folks don't understand them anyway. And the shortcuts? Good luck with those, right?

ROFLMAO? IKR? POBB?

Clarifying is crucial.
My experience with online communication seems to be rather consistent.

100 percent of everything I write is centered and balanced.
100 percent of everything I read was written by an extremely shameless (approximately 53%) or hyper conscientious (approximately 47%) author.
100 percent of everything I write is perceived as extremely aggressive - even when it is not.
100 percent of everything I write that is perceived as aggressive was only read by a self-declared victim but also can be read by a total wuss who can't deal with conflict or differences. This comment is not passive aggressive or aggressive in most (greater than 51%) readers' perception.

Other people who are writing online are just trolling and not serious mostly (61%) or seriously pretending to be bolder online than they are in real life (39%), or both (19%).

^^^^ Factor for elevation and bullshittery (approximately 0.43-2.81)
“Not ripe in spring, no standing by summer, Laches by fall, and moot by winter.”

User avatar
moksha
Posts: 5040
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 4:22 am

Re: Communication skills

Post by moksha » Sun Jan 28, 2024 3:57 pm

Cnsl1 wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2024 10:32 am
Reminds me of the Mehrabian Study in the 70s, Alas.

When communicating emotionality, it's what... 52% body language, 47% tone, and 7% the actual words? I'm sure I have the percentages off slightly, but that's the gist.
Clarifying is crucial.
Like are they mentally performing the perambulations from the Ministry of Silly Walks while typing on the keyboard? It is hard to tell without visual cues. At least we can "look on the bright side of life" and give them the benefit of the doubt. Reading is too hard when being overly serious.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

User avatar
alas
Posts: 2339
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 2:10 pm

Re: Since we don’t have moderators

Post by alas » Sun Jan 28, 2024 6:40 pm

Angel wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2024 7:36 am
alas wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2024 9:09 pm
Angel wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2024 9:00 pm
Great topic.
I do think I'm now on the spectrum - comfortably numb - no feelings. I found my past feelings to be completely false, false trust, false beliefs, false security - my feelings didn't protect, were based on lies, so I have no respect for feelings.

In Tuchkman team formation stages, the storming stage is healthy for a project - better for everyone to be blunt and say what needs to be said, and say it quickly if you want to actually work together effectively in the future.

I took the blunt painful route. My entire family has left the church. I'm still married. It's different for everyone, but cold and calculating - that's what worked for me.
Hey, your feelings were not lies, just based on incorrect information. So, rather than distrusting your feelings, just keep searching for the best most accurate information.
They were lies:

Everything I felt good about, feelings of trust, feelings of comfort, love, safety - that "warm fuzzy" holy spirit - I used to think that feeling really was God saying this is true, these men have authority, this place is safe - those good feelings? Not truth. Not safe. Lies. Just herd bonding - elevation - just your brain feeding itself what it wants.

Everything bad - I used to feel uncomfortable around lgbtq, I used to feel other beliefs were wrong, - completely backwards of what the truth was.

Feelings are false. We can feel love for people who abuse. We can feel hate for people who are amazing and help us.

All the Mormon preaching about "trust your feelings" is wrong.

It is not good to trust feelings. Feelings lie.

Example of better metric - a friend was recently on dating site looking at possible matches. My advice - don't look at picture, look at data. How many times have they been previously married? What ended their previous marriage? Did they walk away from their own kids? If their previous wife is still alive - talk to the previous wife. - data. Gather data on how their relashionship with their kids, on their past relationships - use data.

A few of my best students are on the spectrum too. When forming teams, we talk about it. Their grade, and group work will be better if they can handle working with autistic ppl.

Smiling face, bribery, kind, compliment - those are the ##$ holes who do no work. (and I fail them).

Critical, blunt, not so kind - that is who gets work done and will push others in the group too.

We do have suicidal kids in college, often pressure from parents, in the wrong major. These kids - have to learn to tell their parents "no - this is not what I want to major in". Have to just get them into the right department - get them to admit what they really want. The suicidal depression goes away when they change majors, when they realize they can change, they are in control of their own life, they are their own authority, no need to listen to parents. No following anyone they do not agree with. I don't talk to them about feelings- we talk about what they want, and figure out how they can get what they want.

Yes, talking about what they want and figuring out how they can get it is *great.* No argument there. With students it might be the best approach. The fact that they are suicidal and told you is talking about feelings, and telling you that the parents are pressuring them is going into what caused the feelings, so you did in fact talk about feelings, at least enough to know there is a problem to solve and then you jump in to help them solve it.

Feelings are a road sign. Like physical pain they tell you about a problem, then you have to figure out the problem, then figure out a way to fix the problem. Feelings are not magical, and sometimes people spend too much time worrying about the feelings and never solve the problem. That is not good.

Now, I wrote up some more of my thought on the “feelings lie” subject, but since we are on line, not in person, I can’t judge whether to butt out or share more of what I have learned from not being able to trust my own feelings, and then learning to trust them again. So you are going to have to say you want more on the subject or want me to shut up my stupid mouth. I could sent what I wrote and deleted in a PM if you want.

Mayan_Elephant
Posts: 434
Joined: Thu May 12, 2022 4:57 pm

Re: Since we don’t have moderators

Post by Mayan_Elephant » Sun Jan 28, 2024 6:43 pm

alas wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2024 6:40 pm
Angel wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2024 7:36 am
alas wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2024 9:09 pm


Hey, your feelings were not lies, just based on incorrect information. So, rather than distrusting your feelings, just keep searching for the best most accurate information.
They were lies:

Everything I felt good about, feelings of trust, feelings of comfort, love, safety - that "warm fuzzy" holy spirit - I used to think that feeling really was God saying this is true, these men have authority, this place is safe - those good feelings? Not truth. Not safe. Lies. Just herd bonding - elevation - just your brain feeding itself what it wants.

Everything bad - I used to feel uncomfortable around lgbtq, I used to feel other beliefs were wrong, - completely backwards of what the truth was.

Feelings are false. We can feel love for people who abuse. We can feel hate for people who are amazing and help us.

All the Mormon preaching about "trust your feelings" is wrong.

It is not good to trust feelings. Feelings lie.

Example of better metric - a friend was recently on dating site looking at possible matches. My advice - don't look at picture, look at data. How many times have they been previously married? What ended their previous marriage? Did they walk away from their own kids? If their previous wife is still alive - talk to the previous wife. - data. Gather data on how their relashionship with their kids, on their past relationships - use data.

A few of my best students are on the spectrum too. When forming teams, we talk about it. Their grade, and group work will be better if they can handle working with autistic ppl.

Smiling face, bribery, kind, compliment - those are the ##$ holes who do no work. (and I fail them).

Critical, blunt, not so kind - that is who gets work done and will push others in the group too.

We do have suicidal kids in college, often pressure from parents, in the wrong major. These kids - have to learn to tell their parents "no - this is not what I want to major in". Have to just get them into the right department - get them to admit what they really want. The suicidal depression goes away when they change majors, when they realize they can change, they are in control of their own life, they are their own authority, no need to listen to parents. No following anyone they do not agree with. I don't talk to them about feelings- we talk about what they want, and figure out how they can get what they want.

Yes, talking about what they want and figuring out how they can get it is *great.* No argument there. With students it might be the best approach. The fact that they are suicidal and told you is talking about feelings, and telling you that the parents are pressuring them is going into what caused the feelings, so you did in fact talk about feelings, at least enough to know there is a problem to solve and then you jump in to help them solve it.

Feelings are a road sign. Like physical pain they tell you about a problem, then you have to figure out the problem, then figure out a way to fix the problem. Feelings are not magical, and sometimes people spend too much time worrying about the feelings and never solve the problem. That is not good.

Now, I wrote up some more of my thought on the “feelings lie” subject, but since we are on line, not in person, I can’t judge whether to butt out or share more of what I have learned from not being able to trust my own feelings, and then learning to trust them again. So you are going to have to say you want more on the subject or want me to shut up my stupid mouth. I could sent what I wrote and deleted in a PM if you want.
Fire your guns. I am interested. You can DM me if you want to hold it back from the group.
“Not ripe in spring, no standing by summer, Laches by fall, and moot by winter.”

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 19 guests