Righteous Corecion

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græy
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Righteous Corecion

Post by græy » Tue Jul 02, 2024 8:48 am

My 14 year old largely unbelieving son is feeling a lot of pressure on mission service already. My wife and I have tried to be clear to him that it will 100% be his choice and we will not withhold anything (college tuition, etc) or judge him if he does not go. I am personally thrilled that he is aware of his own beliefs and confident in himself enough to voice those concerns and in my perfect world, he wouldn't ever consider a mission anyway, so this is all a big win for me. Nevertheless, he is feeling the pressure from the church at large.

Today, while renewing my youth "protection" "training". I realized the juxtaposition between these two sources.

From the Church's Youth Protection Training (emphasis added by me):
Coercion can occur when a leader compels a child using religious language or authority that implies a spiritual obligation or duty, permission, sanction, punishment, justification, intimidation, or threat. This is contrary to the Savior’s teaching that individuals should lead “only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned” (Doctrine and Covenants 121:41).
And from a 2012 Ensign article on serving missions (emphasis added by me):
Why is there so much pressure on young men to go on a mission? Isn’t it a personal decision?

The personal decision each young man must make is whether or not he will fulfill his priesthood duty to serve a mission. As President Thomas S. Monson has said: “Every worthy, able young man should prepare to serve a mission. Missionary service is a priesthood duty—an obligation the Lord expects of us who have been given so very much. Young men, I admonish you to prepare for service as a missionary” (“As We Meet Together Again,” Ensign, Nov. 2010, 5–6).

Preparing for a mission is part of a young man’s Aaronic Priesthood experience. It is his duty, and he should feel the appropriate weight of that duty. Of course, he should not serve a mission simply because it is expected or because he feels pressure; he should serve because he desires to share the restored gospel of Jesus Christ with others.

But as he prays about serving a mission, he should also remember that by receiving the priesthood, he has already accepted the sacred responsibility to “warn, expound, exhort, and teach, and invite all to come unto Christ” (D&C 20:59), including by serving as a full-time missionary. If young men are not able to serve because of poor health or a disability, they are honorably excused.
I'm sure there is A LOT more that could be found coercing young men and women to go on missions. This was what came up first in my 5 second search.

I also wanted to note that by limiting honorable excuses to not serve to poor health or disability, that implies that all other reasons for not serving are dishonorable.
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Just This Guy
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Re: Righteous Corecion

Post by Just This Guy » Tue Jul 02, 2024 12:13 pm

græy wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2024 8:48 am
I also wanted to note that by limiting honorable excuses to not serve to poor health or disability, that implies that all other reasons for not serving are dishonorable.
While LDSinc. may say that health and disability are honorable reasons to not go, reality is a different matter. I know several people who had genuine health issues that kept them from going on missions, but they still got a heaping load of guilt and shame from church members for it.
Last edited by Just This Guy on Mon Jul 08, 2024 4:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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wtfluff
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Re: Righteous Corecion

Post by wtfluff » Tue Jul 02, 2024 2:01 pm

My fluffy brain is wondering...

Which part of the "Good MORmON Checklist" does NOT include Righteous Coercion?
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

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moksha
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Re: Righteous Corecion

Post by moksha » Tue Jul 02, 2024 2:33 pm

If you are stopped by an angel with a drawn sword on the road, simply say, "Figment of Joseph's libidinous coercion I banish you back to the realm of Make Believe!"
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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deacon blues
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Re: Righteous Corecion

Post by deacon blues » Wed Jul 03, 2024 6:28 am

I'm thinking about my (19 year old Deacon's) decision to go on a mission.
Reasons not to go. 1. I didn't have a testimony, even though I HAD studied and prayed. (Moroni's promise)
2. I was enjoying college, including studying two lifelong passions: music and history.
3. I was enjoying dating.

Reasons to go. 1. Almost everybody else in Rexburg had a testimony, at least it seemed that way.
2. Almost every girl would only marry a returned missionary.
3. The Church must be true because my brilliant neighbor Henry Eyring said it was.


The deciding factor: My bishop called me to go on a mission, so I went, because one NEVER turns down a calling.

Then I am thinking of things I didn't know.
1. The BOM was not historical, and was translated with a rock.
2. The Bible was largely not historical.
3. There were multiple First Vision accounts.
Actually, this list could be added upon almost infinitely.

The Church's practice of withholding information was coercion. It was also dishonest.
I have to call it unrighteous coercion. :?
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

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alas
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Re: Righteous Corecion

Post by alas » Wed Jul 03, 2024 12:01 pm

Just This Guy wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2024 12:13 pm
græy wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2024 8:48 am
I also wanted to note that by limiting honorable excuses to not serve to poor health or disability, that implies that all other reasons for not serving are dishonorable.
While LDSinc. may say that health and disability are honorable reasons to not go, reality is a different matter. I know several people who had genuine health issues that kept them from going on missions, but they still got a heaping load of guilt and same from church members for it.
There really is no respect for those with medical or other situations that limit their ability to go. Even when the person tries to explain, there are arguments about the person really could go if they just tried harder. Currently my autistic grandson is being supper pressured by ward members to go. He is high functioning autistic, but still has issues, like he needs his own highly structured and predictable schedule. He cannot live by a dictated schedule, and would be constantly screaming and having childlike temper tantrums because he needs his very predictable and structured schedule planned around his needs, not a church’s needs. He has a major eating disorder, as in he would rather starve than try to choke down bread or any bread like food (cake, brownies, you name it) and as it is, he is so scrawny he looks unhealthy. He is addicted to running at least ten miles a day. (He gets invited to invite only world famous marathons and long distance races, I mean we are talking a serious fast long distance runner. He gets irrationally upset if he can’t get his run in or if anything interferes with his schedule, or he is placed in a situation where he is expected to eat something on his l-o-n-g list of things he cannot eat. It is a texture issue and he gags and heaves if he tries to eat any “normal” food. He is normally a sweet good natured kid, but he still has his autistic melt downs that look for all the world like an irrational temper tantrum.

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Hagoth
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Re: Righteous Corecion

Post by Hagoth » Wed Jul 03, 2024 1:06 pm

Coercion can occur when a leader compels a child using religious language or authority that implies a spiritual obligation or duty, permission, sanction, punishment, justification, intimidation, or threat. This is contrary to the Savior’s teaching that individuals should lead “only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned” (Doctrine and Covenants 121:41).
For once I totally agree with the church. It is hilarious, in a sad way, that they be totally lacking in the intelligence and humility required to recognize their constant and blaring displays of hypocrisy.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Linked
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Re: Righteous Corecion

Post by Linked » Wed Jul 03, 2024 2:10 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2024 1:06 pm
Coercion can occur when a leader compels a child using religious language or authority that implies a spiritual obligation or duty, permission, sanction, punishment, justification, intimidation, or threat. This is contrary to the Savior’s teaching that individuals should lead “only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned” (Doctrine and Covenants 121:41).
For once I totally agree with the church. It is hilarious, in a sad way, that they be totally lacking in the intelligence and humility required to recognize their constant and blaring displays of hypocrisy.
This is what the entire culture is built on, religious coercion to attend meetings, pay 10%, judge and avoid "evil" the way they tell you to, "minister", go on a mission, be straight, get married, have kids, be a stay-at-home mom, etc, etc, etc. This is one thing that becomes obvious when you take a step back; even TBMs in my life can see it.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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Red Ryder
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Re: Righteous Corecion

Post by Red Ryder » Wed Jul 03, 2024 2:37 pm

Hi Bishop!

Thanks for the post. I agree with the church (and hagoth) but wonder if they even see the irony.

Sexual abuse coercion = bad
Religious coercion = good

It’s a strange place to be when you can constantly see the church yak out of both sides of its mouth at once.

PS. I need to confess something. Can you be my online bishop for confessional purposes only?
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Palerider
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Re: Righteous Corecion

Post by Palerider » Wed Jul 03, 2024 9:31 pm

Want to see coercion? I'll show you coercion.

This talk grows out of Elder Bedknob's talk on free agency which is a farce. This is what you end up with when the drivel rolls down hill.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iiknvBvVR ... xvcg%3D%3D
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"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

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Hagoth
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Re: Righteous Corecion

Post by Hagoth » Thu Jul 04, 2024 5:30 am

Imagine how different things would be if people just understood John Dehlin's simple advice: "Beware of any human that tells you what God wants for you in your life. That's you job to figure out, not theirs."

I wish I could flash a red banner on the screen in General Conference every time a speaker talks about following God or obeying God's commandments that says "Warning! The "God" he's talking about is 15 old dudes in Salt Lake City."
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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græy
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Re: Righteous Corecion

Post by græy » Mon Jul 08, 2024 12:55 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2024 2:37 pm
PS. I need to confess something. Can you be my online bishop for confessional purposes only?
Hey Red! I'm always happy to be a friend with a listening ear! Can we just not call it confessional?
Well, I'm better than dirt! Ah, well... most kinds of dirt; not that fancy store-bought dirt; that stuff is loaded with nutrients. I can't compete with that stuff. -Moe Sizlack

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nibbler
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Re: Righteous Corecion

Post by nibbler » Tue Jul 09, 2024 5:04 am

The very first time I took the protect the youth training that comment stood out to me as well and for the exact same reasons.

Nelson's opening comments to the April 2022 general conference come immediately to mind. The italics in this quote are retained from the church website, I did not add them.
Today I reaffirm strongly that the Lord has asked every worthy, able young man to prepare for and serve a mission. For Latter-day Saint young men, missionary service is a priesthood responsibility. You young men have been reserved for this time when the promised gathering of Israel is taking place. As you serve missions, you play a pivotal role in this unprecedented event!

For you young and able sisters, a mission is also a powerful, but optional, opportunity. We love sister missionaries and welcome them wholeheartedly. What you contribute to this work is magnificent! Pray to know if the Lord would have you serve a mission, and the Holy Ghost will respond to your heart and mind.
I cringed hard when I heard this live because I knew what it would spark off. Sure enough, a few months later the church set the agenda for a church-wide 5th Sunday program and it was all about coercing children using religious language or authority that implied a spiritual obligation or duty.

It was gross to witness. I wish I had spoken up in the 5th Sunday meeting but in such circumstances I know my emotions get in the way of any point I'd like to make. I'm not a good ambassador for helping people at church understand elements of the culture from an unprogrammed perspective.
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Angel
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Re: Righteous Corecion

Post by Angel » Thu Jul 18, 2024 8:59 am

My son has a few health issues, not horrible, but will keep him out of military. My daughters seem happy with school, doing well etc. My son (and his friends) are struggling - there's quite a bit of talk right now about how we've failed our boys, and as a teacher and a mom, (and the hang-out house) I've seen quite a bit of it.

Church expectations, society's expectations, school issues (forced to take classes that are completely pointless) - I'm done with all of it, won't pressure him to fulfill anyone's bs expectations.

Apprenticeship, work, just fine to me. No drugs, no troubles with law, emotionally happy with friends hanging out, no psycho girlfriends, clean driving record - we're doing amazing. I'm proud of him for escaping so many traps and choosing a simple stress-free path.
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
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MoPag
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Re: Righteous Corecion

Post by MoPag » Sat Jul 20, 2024 12:24 am

deacon blues wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2024 6:28 am

2. Almost every girl would only marry a returned missionary.
Yep, well we were coerced into believing that the only way our lives would mean anything was if we were married in the temple to a returned missionary and spent our lives having babies and being stay-at-home moms. :cry:
...walked eye-deep in hell
believing in old men’s lies...--Ezra Pound

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