JS Polygamy deniers?

[Red Ryder]

I came across a thread on the internet that I hadn’t really thought much about.

We are now fully on the same page and agree that polygamy was NEVER from God. We also believe it started with Brigham Young, not Joseph Smith. (I recommend watching the 132 Problems YouTube channel for more information on this.) The church throws Joseph under the bus because it maintains their line of "authority" and thus control.

Think of how many people throw out God because of what they believe Joseph did. How different would it be if people understood that polygamy and all of its associated issues were laid at the feet of BY and his successors where it belongs. This brings much clarity into our lives, but would require the church to admit that they are off course in many ways. This won't happen in the current establishment.

But, it is important to recognize that we are being shown what DOESN'T work so we can avoid it and its issues in the future. It is an example of a man-made society that doesn't work, not Zion.

My husband has also really come to understand the power of the divine feminine and the partnership of our Heavenly Parents. I am so proud of him and the progress he has made. We appreciate and respect each other and are truly a team now without the domination, "presiding", control, and manipulation that is so common in marriages in the church.

I don't wish what we've been through on anyone else, but I wouldn't trade where we are for anything.

I can’t wrap my head around why anyone would accept BY as a polygamist, assume the church was in apostasy, and yet continue to stay in it.

Joseph's polygamy is one thing that is agreed upon by several groups that otherwise do not get along:

1. LDS church
2. Community of Christ
3. Christianity
4. Academic historians
5. Virtually all apostates
6. Richard Bushman

[AllieOop]

I can’t wrap my head around why anyone would accept BY as a polygamist, assume the church was in apostasy, and yet continue to stay in it.

Joseph's polygamy is one thing that is agreed upon by several groups that otherwise do not get along:

1. LDS church
2. Community of Christ
3. Christianity
4. Academic historians
5. Virtually all apostates
6. Richard Bushman

I agree RR. But, there are still many who absolutely cannot believe that Joseph Smith ever lived polygamy....yet, they remain active members of the church.

These people have put Joseph on such a pedestal that they just cannot accept the truth or the overwhelming documentation & evidence regarding him practicing polygamy (and polyandry).

Most of them claim there is no contemporary evidence that JS lived it, but there most definitely is.
-Letters between Vilate Kimball & Heber
- William Clayton's Nauvoo journal
Even the Nauvoo Expositor + other contemporary writings.

Also, why would Joseph have allowed his church leaders in Nauvoo to live polygamy and not excommunicate them if he believed it was evil?
Some of these men had children with their polygamous wives while Joseph was still alive (Heber C. Kimball, William Clayton & Joseph Bates Noble), so there was proof they married multiple wives.

I've learned to not even try to have a discussion with those who believe this. They will not accept any amount of documentation or proof!!

[wtfluff]

I can’t wrap my head around why anyone would accept BY as a polygamist, assume the church was in apostasy, and yet continue to stay in it.

Yup.

Whether polygamy started with the first CEO, or his successor, it's still in their canonized scripture, it's still practiced today, and still a requirement for exaltation.

[Red Ryder]

I've learned to not even try to have a discussion with those who believe this. They will not accept any amount of documentation or proof!!

Right??

I have a cousin on the marriage side of the family that believes likewise. She shuts down any conversation that asks her to critically think about the evidence.

So we talk about Netflix shows.

[Red Ryder]

I can’t wrap my head around why anyone would accept BY as a polygamist, assume the church was in apostasy, and yet continue to stay in it.

Yup.

Whether polygamy started with the first CEO, or his successor, it's still in their canonized scripture, it's still practiced today, and still a requirement for exaltation.

Yes! It’s telling that the modern church says we don’t practice it anymore, but refuses to actually remove it all.

It’s doctrine. Plain and simple.

[deacon blues]

Polygamy deniers have slightly more evidence to work with than flat-earthers.

[alas]

And if Brigham concocted this complicated plot f getting all kinds of women to swear under oath that they married and had sex with Joseph, why oh why not make it more believable by having Joseph actually obey the rules set forth in D&C? But no, the “plot” is so full of unbelievable holes with actual sworn statements, meaning some 20+ women committed perjury, plus a bunch of men when they testified that Joseph taught them polygamy or asked them for their sister’s hand in marriage. Plus, this “plot” makes Joseph look like he practices polyandry, and married 14 year olds as well as some 50 year olds who didn’t have sex with him, but convinced young women they should marry Joseph. Plus, if it was all a plot, why was Emma so upset, jealous, nasty, and hateful. Plus, if Joseph didn’t practice polygamy he committed adultery. So, the “plot” ends up making Joseph look pretty scummy, and if it was all a plot after the fact, then couldn’t the plotters have done a half decent job? Why purposely make Joseph look like a scum bag? Their “plot” would have been more successful if they had Joseph do polygamy properly and only marry a few wives and actually support them and treat them like wives instead of mistresses. I mean, I know Brigham Young was much smarter than inventing a plot that makes his hero look like scum. He could have had only women who were single and of age say they had married Joseph….and his foster daughters!!!! That is legally incest. Now, if I was going to make it look like Joseph started polygamy, I would have done a much better job and kept Joseph’s reported polygamy to what the rules in D&C say as well as the rules of common decency. You almost have to accept that if his polygamy could not have been fabricated after the fact, because any idiot would avoid making Joseph look like scum. Well except maybe Joseph himself made his actions make him look like scum, because he thought he could keep it all secret.

[moksha]

Are the deniers offering the rationale that Joseph was a serial adulterer rather than a polygamist as Alas suggested?

[deacon blues]

I just listened to a full podcast denying Joseph Smith practiced polygamy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_c6ja7iJlA
It was by a guy named Jeremy Hoops. His presentation was vey polished and even tempered. He did express displeasure with John Dehlin and Nuancehoe, but other than that he is very careful not to offend.
Most of the podcast was designed to appeal to the emotions.
He promised compelling evidence but did not give any. He only questioned the sincerity of unnamed people who testified to the Joseph instituting polygamy. He briefly named Brigham Young, but in this particular podcast he seems to be trying to avoid offending TBM's. He hints that polygamy started with unnamed rogue apostles (Brigham, the Pratts, John Taylor) in England, trying to seduce English sisters, but so far no accusations, only hints.
He's got a huge task ahead of him if he wants to convince more people than the Joseph Smith worshippers.
It will be like trying to fix a rusty, leaky bucket that has been blasted with a shotgun.

[deacon blues]

I'm going down another tunnel in the Mormon rabbit hole. I have watched 3-4 podcasts by Michelle Brady-Stone, probably the most prominent podcaster who believes Joseph Smith did not practice polygamy.
She uses historical methods, but seems to me to idolize Joseph Smith somewhat, though I might be wrong. She is very sharp, yet civil. When Brian Hales came on her podcast he tried to "call her to repentance" and she zinged him with a couple of retorts. One was was when she quoted Pres. Hinckley on Larry King saying "I condemn it [polygamy] as a practice because I think it is not doctrinal..."
She is good at presenting her position, even though I still think she position is wrong.

[alas]

Are the deniers offering the rationale that Joseph was a serial adulterer rather than a polygamist as Alas suggested?

No, they just pretend he wasn’t caught with his pants down by his wife in the barn. They ignore Oliver Cowdry accusing him of adultery. They totally ignore the whole Fanny Alger situation because there is no good way to explain it. It was before the idea of polygamy was even brought up. They pretend he never had sex with anyone but Emma, and they paint this wonderful love story between the two. It is like the church pretends that his tarring and feathering was about doctrine instead of him being caught trying to seduce a 16 year old.

[deacon blues]

The polygamy deniers are like regular TBM's, except they admit that mistakes were made, mainly by Brigham Young. The one's I've listened to try to sound supportive of current leaders, and they try to defend most Church doctrines. In their effort to defend Joseph Smith and his lying about polygamy they seem compelled to build him up more. They like the Book of Mormon because it points out how polygamy breaks the hearts of women and children. They think D&C 132 is partly or completely forged, and in the episodes I have listened to, they do not address the Nauvoo Expositor exposing Joseph Smith, or the Nauvoo City Council meeting where Joseph said he didn't intend polygamy for this life, but for the next life.
Isn't it crazy how people can defend almost any point of view online? Just ignore the evidence that contradicts your point of view and double down on whatever evidence can be twisted to support your point of view.

I guess one thing that resonates with me was my Mom was a TBM, but she felt polygamy was wrong, completely. She passed on in 2005 and I always wonder if she had lived longer, if she might have explored some of the Churches problematical history.

[Hagoth]

They pretend he never had sex with anyone but Emma, and they paint this wonderful love story between the two.

And everybody was happy about Joseph merely sealing himself "for eternity" to women until the next life, when they will be taken away from their husband of choice and given to Joseph forever That really warms my heart and promotes my faith. All that matters is that you keep sex out of the picture. Just believe anything that will keep you from forming pictures in your head of Brother Joseph lifting a 14 year-old's petticoats.

[moksha]

They totally ignore the whole Fanny Alger situation because there is no good way to explain it.

Instead of saying that Joseph was sealing himself to Fanny in the hay loft, they could claim he was giving her a good hard baptism.

[deacon blues]

The "Polygamy Deniers" seem to be becoming more numerous, and they're definitely making smoke, even if not much fire. Apologists like Brian Hales, Greg Matsen, and Jacob Hanson are responding to the "I Believe Joseph" people. It's interesting, and for people like me who find Mormon History fascinating, it is sometimes informative.
It is also to great place to study rhetorical fallacies. Both sides of the debate are guilty of rhetorical fallacies, just as I am at times, but they deny it.
The "deniers" will demonize William Law or Leonard Soby, but treat Brigham Young with kit gloves, which I think is an indication of self-deception.
From what I've seen, neither side will recognize any merits in people like William Law, David Whitmer, or even modern critics like John Dehlin, or Dan Vogel.
From my point of view, they desperately cling to the idea that the Church is still valid, despite the sins, transgressions, contradictions, and deceit of its leaders.
I'm reminded of the Catholic Church. People crave authority/tradition to be legitimate, and will deny reality to try to hold on to that perceived foundation, even if it is built on a sand.
Amidst all the debate they seem to not be able to consider the idea that-- Joseph made it all up!

[deacon blues]

I'm showing my obsession here. In my defense, I probably spend less than five hours a week with the Polygamy deniers/I believe Joseph movement.
A big problem that I don't see them taking on is Joseph Smith's hypocrisy. The times when he broke the word of wisdom for example. Were those real or Did the Brighamites add those instances to his history after his death? Also, I haven't seen any apologetics for his obsession with Masonry. I haven't seen ANY response to his "The secret of Masonry is to keep a secret" quote.
I haven't read all the Polydeniers posts, they multiply like rabbits, like a lot of things on the internet. Nor will I ever have time to dive much deeper into this phenomenon that the Algorhythms God has seen fit to send me.
It's seems like the polydeniers just don't like to talk about this side of their apologetic position.

[Bonfire]

Conglomerating all this is why we have modern prophets and ongoing personal revelation.

[deacon blues]

One problem early Mormon historians had was their propensity to edit and delete problematic sources and texts. This has come back to bite the Church in the butt.
Polygamy deniers can honestly point this out, and it casts a shadow of doubt on polygamy accounts particularly, but indeed on all of the faith promoting propaganda that the LDS church has put out since, well 1830.
I mean, why should we believe William Clayton or Brigham himself, when it's obvious that they lied when it served their purposes?