NOM

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote: ↑Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:11 pm Simple, he hated farm work! His family needed followers to take care of them.

This gets my vote! I grew up on a farm.... totally know this could definitely be the winner!

SeeNoEvil wrote: ↑Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:04 pm Maybe some schizophrenia going on?

I have some experience with the symptoms of schizophrenia, and I would think not. The experience of these kinds of hallucinations are fragmented, distorted, and generally nightmarish. Based on my own battle with schizophreniform disorder, I find it difficult to imagine somebody putting together visions as lucid as the retelling that JS describes.

That said, I can only experience such a thing from my own mind, and not somebody else. So I suppose it is a possibility. I would lean toward a more general kind of psychosis, however. Delusion is pretty universal among psychoses. Maybe bipolar disorder is more likely what JS had.

SeeNoEvil wrote: ↑Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:05 pm Maybe this will help in understanding how JS who is portrayed as a seemingly ordinary humble farm boy was definitely not ordinary and could have crafted such a scam and got away with it. https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/sp ... lt-leaders

I don't think Joseph Smith thought of his new religion as a scam. Doesn't fit the profile. From the article:

They all have or had an over-abundant belief that they were special, that they and they alone had the answers to problems, and that they had to be revered. They demanded perfect loyalty from followers, they overvalued themselves and devalued those around them, they were intolerant of criticism, and above all they did not like being questioned or challenged. And yet, in spite of these less than charming traits, they had no trouble attracting those who were willing to overlook these features.

Though this is meant to describe cult leaders, I can hardly think of a better description of the LDS church itself. Joseph Smith's legacy lives on!

I think the whole question of JS, who he really was, what he was really like, what his true motivations were and what he really believed about himself are among the most interesting questions about Mormonism -- for me, anyway.

When I converted at 22, I bought into the whole experience wholeheartedly, with one exception: I really didn't like JS. I had a very negative gut reaction to him and it troubled me for almost 30 years. I believed the church was true and wonderful; it had helped me turn my whole life around and what was wrong with me that I didn't feel good about the guy who founded it all? I was uncomfortable every time I had a recommend interview and had to say I had a testimony of him, every time I heard that he was going to be the judge of our dispensation, all the hyperbole about him being the greatest man next to Christ himself, etc. . . . he was the heaviest item on my shelf for all that time, and it was something I read about him in American Crucifixion that finally brought the shelf crashing down.

Fifi de la Vergne wrote: ↑Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:26 am I was uncomfortable every time I had a recommend interview and had to say I had a testimony of him, every time I heard that he was going to be the judge of our dispensation, all the hyperbole about him being the greatest man next to Christ himself, etc. . .

This was my experience as well, but I was BIC. The story never resonated with me.

In my reactivation after my husband died...I absolutely worshiped Joseph Smith...I mean I really believed in this man! When I fell, I fell hard and fast.
The reason JS did it?? It just all fell into place. The sermons and writings of Martin Harris and Signey Rigdon...and then later connecting with the Whitmers and Cowdery...all these and all those things Joseph studied as well as the prominence of the Bible...just frikkin fell into place to rear the ugly head of his personality traits...it became easier to be his charismatic self in face of all of his own desires.

Fifi de la Vergne wrote: ↑Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:26 am I think the whole question of JS, who he really was, what he was really like, what his true motivations were and what he really believed about himself are among the most interesting questions about Mormonism -- for me, anyway.

When I converted at 22, I bought into the whole experience wholeheartedly, with one exception: I really didn't like JS. I had a very negative gut reaction to him and it troubled me for almost 30 years. I believed the church was true and wonderful; it had helped me turn my whole life around and what was wrong with me that I didn't feel good about the guy who founded it all? I was uncomfortable every time I had a recommend interview and had to say I had a testimony of him, every time I heard that he was going to be the judge of our dispensation, all the hyperbole about him being the greatest man next to Christ himself, etc. . . . he was the heaviest item on my shelf for all that time, and it was something I read about him in American Crucifixion that finally brought the shelf crashing down.

It's really interesting to read how you felt about him. In my devout days I felt very strongly that Joseph, while far from perfect, was a religious savant and ultimately tried to do what was right. But all those negative feelings you had for him I absolutely recognize as my feelings for Brigham!

Not to discount your feelings at all, they are justified. Just interesting how we all felt and evolved with this mormon stuff.

Margarita wrote: ↑Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:01 am In my reactivation after my husband died...I absolutely worshiped Joseph Smith...I mean I really believed in this man! When I fell, I fell hard and fast.

LaMachina wrote: ↑Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:11 am It's really interesting to read how you felt about him. In my devout days I felt very strongly that Joseph, while far from perfect, was a religious savant and ultimately tried to do what was right. But all those negative feelings you had for him I absolutely recognize as my feelings for Brigham!

Not to discount your feelings at all, they are justified. Just interesting how we all felt and evolved with this mormon stuff.

It is interesting (and very refreshing) to compare our feelings and experiences without having to justify them or feel guilty about them! And I know people really admire and love JS -- I just never did. All I could summon was a feeling that he was . . . slippery, somehow.

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote: ↑Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:11 pm Simple, he hated farm work! His family needed followers to take care of them.

I think that's a reasonable starting point.

He also believed in and was captivated by the idea of magic and scrying, possibly to the point that he believed to some degree that he was doing it. Add to that ambition, a natural talent for story telling, and an above-average intellect that was unfulfilled due to undereducation and in need of an outlet. I really think Joseph believed that the BoM was the coolest thing ever, and that people would eat it up and he could retire off the profits. One of the early revelations even says that his only calling was to translate the gold plates. That didn't pan out but he found himself surrounded by believing followers who were eager to sacrifice for someone who appeared to have a special connection to God and that gave him the opportunity to just keep doing what he did best and it eventually made him a king. Did he believe it? He probably thought it was a righteous con of sorts, an extension of the pseudepigrapha that he produced - not quite true but overall good. He had a very fertile mind and when interesting things popped into his head he may have thought they coming from on high.

People who think there was no financial motive must overlook a pattern of things like D&C 19 demanding money from Martin Harris, the attempt to sell the Book of Mormon copyright, the Kirtland bank scandal, all of the property deals that God arranged to make sure Joseph had the best land and that people had to buy from him first, the Nauvoo House mandated by God for possession by Joseph and his descendants, etc, etc.

So he could use religion as an excuse to become:
1- An adulterer
2- A child sex offender
3- A swinger
4- A con artist
5- The king of the world.

I feel like I'm forgetting something.

StarbucksMom wrote: ↑Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:22 pm So he could use religion as an excuse to become:
1- An adulterer
2- A child sex offender
3- A swinger
4- A con artist
5- The king of the world.

I feel like I'm forgetting something.

That's a pretty good list ..... but let's not forget what the church describes JS as being: Prophet of God, Seeker of Truth, Leader of Christ's church, Devoted husband and father, martyr of the restored gospel....

Reuben wrote: ↑Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:09 pm

They all have or had an over-abundant belief that they were special, that they and they alone had the answers to problems, and that they had to be revered. They demanded perfect loyalty from followers, they overvalued themselves and devalued those around them, they were intolerant of criticism, and above all they did not like being questioned or challenged. And yet, in spite of these less than charming traits, they had no trouble attracting those who were willing to overlook these features.

Though this is meant to describe cult leaders, I can hardly think of a better description of the LDS church itself. Joseph Smith's legacy lives on!

And just why does Joseph Smith's legacy live on? It is not uncommon to have leaders rise up that attract many followers with their dreams and visionary tales but then their time fades and dies away. Not only did Josephs tale not fade away it has gone on to thrive and with followers all over the world.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:16 am He also believed in and was captivated by the idea of magic and scrying, possibly to the point that he believed to some degree that he was doing it. Add to that ambition, a natural talent for story telling, and an above-average intellect that was unfulfilled due to undereducation and in need of an outlet. I really think Joseph believed that the BoM was the coolest thing ever, and that people would eat it up and he could retire off the profits. One of the early revelations even says that his only calling was to translate the gold plates. That didn't pan out but he found himself surrounded by believing followers who were eager to sacrifice for someone who appeared to have a special connection to God and that gave him the opportunity to just keep doing what he did best and it eventually made him a king. Did he believe it? He probably thought it was a righteous con of sorts, an extension of the pseudepigrapha that he produced - not quite true but overall good. He had a very fertile mind and when interesting things popped into his head he may have thought they coming from on high.

People who think there was no financial motive must overlook a pattern of things like D&C 19 demanding money from Martin Harris, the attempt to sell the Book of Mormon copyright, the Kirtland bank scandal, all of the property deals that God arranged to make sure Joseph had the best land and that people had to buy from him first, the Nauvoo House mandated by God for possession by Joseph and his descendants, etc, etc.

I agree. I think JS might have been surprised at how his new religion took off. Probably not what his original intentions were. With the success came more "inspiration" and he ran with it. Like so many here on NOM I too loved JS and loved the hymns and primary songs that told his wonderful story. My image of him began to unravel about 10 years ago while on a trip to Nauvoo. While there I purchased a book on Nauvoo to read on the trip home. As I read where he had made himself king an uneasy sick feeling fell over me which I now know was caused by the sound of my cracking shelf.