Nephite Interpreters

[wtfluff]

Another thing that should probably be mentioned in this thread is that at some point, they began using the "Urim and Thummim" moniker for both the magic brown egg rock, and the magic pre-historic anachronistic spectacles.

I still want to know if it was really the hat that was magic. Anyone got any feelings that can lead them to such knowledge?

[Anon70]

[Palerider]

Emma's quote above gives more content to the discussion but isn't she only taking Joseph's word for using the Interpreters as the tool while she was scribing? Was there a sheet between herself and Joseph when she was scribe? Is there any record of her giving an actual account of "seeing" the Interpreters?

No one could have seen them because Joseph said no one could see them and live... which is what makes all the descriptions so bizarre.

So Emma says he used the interpreters likely because Joseph told her as such, and then once they restarted and JS likely dropped the curtain and just used a rock in a hat she obviously noticed the difference.

The last interview from Emma given to her son, Joseph Smith lll, states firmly that Joseph never practiced or introduced polygamy. This, in spite of the fact that the record shows she was very aware of just the opposite.

She had thrown him out of the house when the affair with Fanny Alger was discovered. So she either had to eventually see that affair as polygamy or she's asking us to believe that Joseph was an adulterer while claiming to be a prophet. Either way, Joseph loses and the veracity of Emma's "testimony" comes into doubt. She is not a reliable witness.

[Palerider]

Another thing that should probably be mentioned in this thread is that at some point, they began using the "Urim and Thummim" moniker for both the magic brown egg rock, and the magic pre-historic anachronistic spectacles.

I still want to know if it was really the hat that was magic. Anyone got any feelings that can lead them to such knowledge?

According to the statements of some, Joseph pushed his face into the hat to block out the light and then he could see the written "translation" appear on the stone.

Draw your own conclusions accordingly.

[jfro18]

Another thing that should probably be mentioned in this thread is that at some point, they began using the "Urim and Thummim" moniker for both the magic brown egg rock, and the magic pre-historic anachronistic spectacles.

Even funnier to me is that it was WW Phelps who first introduced the term U&T in 1832... years after it was published. It wasn't even Joseph who made the connection, but Phelps who wanted to connect Joseph's folk magic with Biblical tradition, even if it was a completely absurd comparison.

This is why the new 'seer stone' video is so misleading - they try to normalize this practice and gloss over the fact that these terms are anachronistic (albeit by just a few years) to the translation process itself.

[Hagoth]

I guess I'm still not sure why we limit the spectacles to only the first 116 pages, what records deal with that?

edit to add: The size is important because the gigungus breastplate/spectacles were made to fit the gigungus mound builder peoples, who have proven to be just as real as the rest of JS's inventions.

The official history says that after the 116 pages were the Angel took the interpreters and Joseph lost his ability to translate. According to the BoM translation essay when Josephs started translating again it was with the hat, and they make the assumption, "Apparently for convenience, Joseph often translated with the single seer stone rather than the two stones bound together to form the interpreters." They then muddy the picture by saying that he also used the brown stone in the hat. I guess the poor guy just could't figure out what worked better, a magic lens made by God specifically for that purpose or a rock he found in a well. Also, if the U&T stones were lenses in a pair of glasses why would you put them in the bottom of a hat where you couldn't even look through them at the plates? I guess they were just generally magical and you could use them however you wanted.

Still, it seems like all JS had to do was tell everyone that Samuel was wrong and there never were any spectacles.

A lot of what Joseph did consisted of riffing on other peoples' ideas. Maybe he thought the spectacles idea was cool and ran with it.

[Hagoth]

As with everything else regarding church origins, it's really useful to step way back and tell yourself this story in the simplest possible terms as if you're an outsider hearing it for the first time. I did this out loud while driving one day when my shelf was breaking and really cracked myself up; it is really so damned wacky in all of its contradictions and convolutions and the layers upon layers of apologetics required to make it sound reasonable.

[alas]

Emma's quote above gives more content to the discussion but isn't she only taking Joseph's word for using the Interpreters as the tool while she was scribing? Was there a sheet between herself and Joseph when she was scribe? Is there any record of her giving an actual account of "seeing" the Interpreters?

No one could have seen them because Joseph said no one could see them and live... which is what makes all the descriptions so bizarre.

So Emma says he used the interpreters likely because Joseph told her as such, and then once they restarted and JS likely dropped the curtain and just used a rock in a hat she obviously noticed the difference.

The last interview from Emma given to her son, Joseph Smith lll, states firmly that Joseph never practiced or introduced polygamy. This, in spite of the fact that the record shows she was very aware of just the opposite.

She had thrown him out of the house when the affair with Fanny Alger was discovered. So she either had to eventually see that affair as polygamy or she's asking us to believe that Joseph was an adulterer while claiming to be a prophet. Either way, Joseph loses and the veracity of Emma's "testimony" comes into doubt. She is not a reliable witness.

Another way to look at this is that “polygamy” required the first wife’s willing permission and that Emma never really gave that. I think a couple of times she was forced into agreeing to his sealings to other women, but she never agreed for him to be sleeping with them as husband and wife. So, according to the rules of polygamy in D&C, Joseph never did follow those rules, so he never “practiced polygamy” *by the rules*. What he did do was garden variety adultery as far as I am concerned. Because the number one thing about polygamy is the public recognition that the woman is married so that if she gets pregnant, she won’t be stoned for adultery. There has to be that public knowledge that the husband is a husband to her, or she is just having sex with a married man. Period. If it is conducted in secret, it is by definition, adultery. No matter if they have a non-legal piece of paper. It was not a *legal* marriage and it was not a publicly recognized common law marriage. What the hell kind of marriage do you call it then?

What Joseph had was not “marriage” by any definition, except that he tried to pass it off as God approved. OK, great, call it God approved adultery then, cause it was not a marriage.

The purpose of marriage back then was to acknowledge paternity, and Joseph’s hookups did not do that.

So, Emma is correct. Joseph was never married to anyone but Emma.

Brigham Younghandeled it very differently in Utah by making his unions public. That was polygamy.

So, yes, Emma was saying that what Joseph did was adultery. But she apparently still thought he was a prophet. So, to me, Emma is really the only witness that it do trust. The rest were a bunch of lying con men....or in the case of Martin Harris and a few others “conned men”.

[RubinHighlander]

As with everything else regarding church origins, it's really useful to step way back and tell yourself this story in the simplest possible terms as if you're an outsider hearing it for the first time. I did this out loud while driving one day when my shelf was breaking and really cracked myself up; it is really so damned wacky in all of its contradictions and convolutions and the layers upon layers of apologetics required to make it sound reasonable.

But Hagoth, God's ways are not our ways; and this is why we can't have nice religions!

Seriously though, the level of ridiculousness required to make any of it work is astounding.

[MoPag]

This is exactly what I thought of when I read Fluff's post!!

[jfro18]

But Hagoth, God's ways are not our ways; and this is why we can't have nice religions!

Seriously though, the level of ridiculousness required to make any of it work is astounding.

A while back I started typing up a list of "things that have to be true for the church to be true" that was just a super loose list that was semi-chronological.

I didn't really get that detailed in it, but the little bit I did... when you read it and think about it without a context of having already gone through it there's absolutely no possible way it could be true.

Not only could it not be true, but it made me feel so stupid for believing it even if I was never as "TBM" as a lot of others... I mean it's absurd.

[wtfluff]

This is exactly what I thought of when I read Fluff's post!!

♫ There must have been some magic in that old white hat Joe found; ♫
♫ For when he stuffed his face in it... ♫


Someone more creative than me... Go for it!

[RubinHighlander]

But Hagoth, God's ways are not our ways; and this is why we can't have nice religions!

Seriously though, the level of ridiculousness required to make any of it work is astounding.

A while back I started typing up a list of "things that have to be true for the church to be true" that was just a super loose list that was semi-chronological.

I didn't really get that detailed in it, but the little bit I did... when you read it and think about it without a context of having already gone through it there's absolutely no possible way it could be true.

Not only could it not be true, but it made me feel so stupid for believing it even if I was never as "TBM" as a lot of others... I mean it's absurd.

Dude I know! It's been one of the hardest things to get over and I don't know if I ever will. I mean, I will never forget a testimony I once gave where I said it didn't matter if the DNA evidence and BOM don't agree, God can change DNA and it's really about how the book makes you feels. What that testimony really was...me crying for help because the cogdis and mental gymnastics were so painful at that time. I was trying desperately to show the Lord the world and my family how strong I was while I was precariously shivering on the edge of the cliff of truth. Thanks the Gods I finally convinced myself there was no spoon, let go and jumped off.

[jfro18]

Dude I know! It's been one of the hardest things to get over and I don't know if I ever will. I mean, I will never forget a testimony I once gave where I said it didn't matter if the DNA evidence and BOM don't agree, God can change DNA and it's really about how the book makes you feels. What that testimony really was...me crying for help because the cogdis and mental gymnastics were so painful at that time. I was trying desperately to show the Lord the world and my family how strong I was while I was precariously shivering on the edge of the cliff of truth. Thanks the Gods I finally convinced myself there was no spoon, let go and jumped off.

There was a time when I was still hanging on where I told myself that polygamy was awful, but it didn't matter because the church was good *today* and that's all that matters.

And then I started thinking that Joseph Smith couldn't have been a prophet because polygamy was wrong, but it was OK because God was with the church today clearly as they were still revealing things that other churches weren't.

It wasn't long after that I left go of the rope completely though.

I see that in my wife today when she'll say things like "I dont need a testimony of church history when I have a testimony of what they're doing today," but I have no hope that she'll end up letting go like I did... but it's definitely there.

[RubinHighlander]

I see that in my wife today when she'll say things like "I dont need a testimony of church history when I have a testimony of what they're doing today," but I have no hope that she'll end up letting go like I did... but it's definitely there.

And isn't that sad! If she only could see what TSCC is really doing today! Covering up abuse, messing in politics, denying science, creating mental issues with its policies of hate and guilt that lead to depression and suicide, spending billions of donations on all their shell corporations to make investments into stocks and land instead of really solving human problems with it. All this under the ruse that they talk to Jesus and this is what he wants for them.

[Hagoth]

while back I started typing up a list of "things that have to be true for the church to be true" that was just a super loose list that was semi-chronological.

I love that idea. Did you ever post it on NOM? I would like to see it.

[græy]

while back I started typing up a list of "things that have to be true for the church to be true" that was just a super loose list that was semi-chronological.

I love that idea. Did you ever post it on NOM? I would like to see it.

Ditto

[jfro18]

I love that idea. Did you ever post it on NOM? I would like to see it.

I didn't - this was something I wanted to put into a larger post on the site that had bullet points with a very small summary under each, showing all the things that would have to happen for the church to be true... this is just a super rough thing I was working on in notepad so it's not really worked out nor is it complete or well edited.

• Joseph Smith would be able to use the same seer stone that he was never able to find hidden treasure with to locate the golden plates

• Moroni would instruct Joseph Smith to receive the gold plates using the folk magic date of the autumnal equinox each year until he finally claimed to receive them

• We would have to believe that the plates would use a language called "Reformed Egyptian" that no one has ever found elsewhere even though it was a massive civilization

• The "Reformed Egyptian" characters that Joseph copied from the plates would resemble crudely modified English language letters and numbers along with symbols from his family's folk magic parchments even though this language would written well before our present day language existed

• That Nephi would need to commit murder to receive the gold plates so they could be carefully protected throughout time only for Joseph to never use them to translate the Book of Mormon as we have it today, instead using the same rock he used for treasure digging in a hat to receive the text

• That Joseph Smith could get the text of the Book of Mormon by placing the same rock he used for treasure digging into a hat, and then reading the literal words that would appear on the rock to his scribe. All of this while the gold plates were often not even in the house

• That when Joseph Smith lost the original 116 pages, God would tell Joseph not to retranslate for fear that someone could alter the original pages to prove him a fraud, even though it would be incredibly obvious in that time that the words were altered by another hand

• That God knew that Joseph Smith was going to lose those exact 116 pages and had a second set of small plates made to cover that exact timeline so that Joseph could finish the Book of Mormon

• That when Joseph Smith replaced the original 116 pages, he kept from naming almost any people (only 15 names in 1st and 2nd Nephi, Jacob, and Jarem), cities, or specifics in what amounted to about 400 years of history

• Joseph Smith would put a rock in a hat and read the words directly off of the hat, yet would include King James Bible errors, Deutero-Isaiah verses, and New Testament phrasing that would not be available to Book of Mormon authors

• The Book of Mormon would be given a literal purpose of telling the Native Americans the history of their ancestors even though we would later find out that Native Americans came from Asia using both DNA and migration patterns

• That God would incorrectly tell Joseph through multiple revelations that the Native Americans were Lamanites, whic as stated above is simply not possible

• That the entire Book of Mormon people could die in massive battles without any evidence whatsoever including weaponry, coins, or remains

• That the Book of Mormon could include bees, horses, wheels, metalworking, coins, silk, and other items that were simply not in America in the times that the Book of Mormon is claimed to be

• That the Jaredites could reach America in boats that could not possibly be built during the time nor could they carry the amount of food, water, and supplies needed to reach America given the descriptions in the Book of Mormon

• That literally hundreds of thousands of people could die by sword in the battle at Hill Cumorah, which would be almost impossible given the nature of warfare an up close setting such as sword fights -- and that there would be no evidence of these swords, shields, human remains, etc.

• That the Hill Cumorah that hosted the final battle in the Book of Mormon was a different hill than the Hill Cumorah in New York, since that hill has been scanned and includes no remains or artifacts from the Book of Mormon battles

• That no one would ever see the gold plates with the physical eyes, instead only seeing them in a vision.

• That Joseph Smith could recite the Book of Mormon tales to his family long before he actually wrote the book in great detail according to his mother Lucy Mack Smith

• That God would give Joseph Smith a translation through the seer stone of the Book of Mormon that included a trinitarian view of God even after Joseph claimed to be visited by both God and Jesus

• That God would give Joseph Smith a perfect translation through the seer stone of the Book of Mormon and then allow Joseph to copy directly out of the King James Bible verses from Isaiah that were written after the plates were taken to America

• That Joseph Smith would receive a revelation that Hiram Page's seer stone was from the devil even though Joseph translated the Book of Mormon in the very same way

• That Joseph Smith would only remember one personage in his first First Vision account, only to mention that both God and Jesus appeared in later retellings as his theology changed

• That Joseph Smith would not remember that John the Baptist was there to restore the priesthood until Oliver Cowdery remembered it 4-5 years after it supposedly happened, just happening to coincide with a power struggle that got Oliver the second highest spot in the church back soon after

• That God would promise to keep the people of Missouri safe via revelation only to have them flee after losing their land and some losing their lives

• That Joseph Smith would note that Zelph was a Lamanite during the Zion March, meaning that the Book of Mormon took place in America even though there is no evidence of the civilization ever being here

• That Joseph Smith could see both Elias and Elijah in the temple even though they are the same person with different translations in the Old and New Testaments

• That Joseph Smith identified the Egyptian papyrus as the Book of Abraham written by Abraham's own hand, yet we now know the papyrus used for the Book of Abraham has nothing to do with Abraham, does not date to Abraham's date, nor are any of the facsimiles correct.

• That even though the manuscripts of the Book of Abraham have the characters from the papyrus in the margins (and in order from the papyrus), that there must be a lost scroll with the actual Book of Abraham on it lost in the fire

• That God would have Joseph Smith translate the papyrus in a way that doesn't match the actual translation in any way in order to build a need for faith in Joseph Smith's prophetic abilities

• That the Masons had the closest thing to the original temple ceremony as Joseph Smith lifted the language, signs, tokens, penalties, progression, and clothing from the Masonic ceremonies just weeks after his initiation.

• That God would call polygamy an abomination in the Book of Mormon only to instruct Joseph Smith to implement polygamy in modern times soon after translating the book

• That God would tell Joseph Smith that He commanded Abraham to take Hagar as a wife even though the Bible is clear that it was Sarai (Sarah) that gave Hagar to Abraham

• That God would give Joseph Smith the Word of Wisdom revelation and neglect to direct the church to boil their water, which ultimately led to the deaths and illness of many early members

• The pure Adamic language would reflect a modified version of the English language just as the 'Reformed Egyptian' characters did. (God = Awman, Son of God = The Son Awman, Angels = Awmen Angls-men)

• That Adam and Eve were born in Missouri in just the spot that Joseph Smith happened to settle the church, even though all evidence contradicts the first people being born in America

• That God would send an angel with a drawn sword to force Joseph Smith to engage in polygamy, both taking away his free agency and then not repremanding him for not raising seed with these wives

• That God would send an angel with a drawn sword to force Joseph Smith to engage in polygamy, yet would allow the church to wrongly ban black members from the priesthood for about 130 years without any punishment or correction

• That Brigham Young was transformed into Joseph Smith even though the story was not told in any newspapers or journals at the time, only to pop up all over the country years later

• That Brigham Young could incorrectly teach that Adam is our God or that Blood Atonement is doctrine of the church

• That the church would correctly insist the Kinderhook Plates were real even over the objections of those who claimed to create them until science definitively proved them to be a hoax in the 1980s

• That God would give John Taylor a revelation in 1886 confirming that polygamy was the *everlasting* covenant only to allow it to be discontinued just four years later

• That God would give Thomas Monson a revelatoin in 2015 that the children of LGBT children should not be baptized and that their parents should be labeled apostates only to reverse this revelation in a new revelation to Russell Nelson 3.5 years later

• That God knew that Joseph Smith would lose the 116 pages and instructed a second set of plates to be made thousands of years ago, but didn't know the Nov 2015 LGBT policy would be a disaster that would need to be removed 3.5 years later

• That God would allow prophets throughout its history to believe that gay people are not born gay until science finally forced them to admit they are, in fact, born gay.

• That you can only enter exaltation by knowing the handshakes that were used originally used in a Masonic ceremony

[MoPag]

This is exactly what I thought of when I read Fluff's post!!

♫ There must have been some magic in that old white hat Joe found; ♫
♫ For when he stuffed his face in it... ♫


Someone more creative than me... Go for it!

Moksha?

[Linked]

And isn't that sad! If she only could see what TSCC is really doing today! Covering up abuse, messing in politics, denying science, creating mental issues with its policies of hate and guilt that lead to depression and suicide, spending billions of donations on all their shell corporations to make investments into stocks and land instead of really solving human problems with it. All this under the ruse that they talk to Jesus and this is what he wants for them.

Is there a CES Letter type summary that covers the harm done by the current church? Combining all the stuff that has been done in the last 30 years and that is ongoing now, like what you mention above. I think that would be amazing.