NOM

“Hagoth” wrote:4- Olishem is clearly one of Joseph Smith's made up words that he contrived while he was learning Hebrew. It's a conflation of the Hebrew words olah and shem, which means basically "name of a place of sacrifice."

Yobispo wrote: ↑Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:56 pm The title and subtitle are very important, in my mind.

"THE BOOK OF ABRAHAM
TRANSLATED FROM THE PAPYRUS, BY JOSEPH SMITH

A Translation of some ancient Records that have fallen into our hands from the catacombs of Egypt. The writings of Abraham while he was in Egypt, called the Book of Abraham, written by his own hand, upon papyrus."

Joseph told us that it was written in Egypt by Abraham, "by his own hand, upon papyrus". Joseph gives us the location where it was written, who wrote it and what he wrote it on. Yet the church now admits (in the essay, not general conference where believers would hear it) that the papyrus has nothing to do with Abraham at all. I think that the arguments beyond that are a waste of your precious time. After all, if we can't take "by his own hand upon papyrus" literally, then words don't mean anything.

Yobispo wrote: ↑Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:56 pmYet the church now admits (in the essay, not general conference where believers would hear it) that the papyrus has nothing to do with Abraham at all.

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:32 amYobispo for the win! The title and subtitle alone completely demolish all of the apologetic arguments.

Random wrote: ↑Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:04 am Also, while I'm on the rant (or whatever it is), I'm bringing up the Word of Wisdom (which has been made into a commandment). The "conspiring men" was spot on, and no doubt wheat was healthy in JS's day - but as a prophetic document, it neglected to prophesy how toxic wheat would become to many people 125+ years down the road.

And signs follow them that believe, but the only healing I can find that seems to have existed was the temporary healing that happened when the people were in a swamp. They were sick, but needed to build a city. They were able to heal enough to do a lot of work, then got sick again. How is that any different than the athlete who breaks a bone during a game, but finishes the game unaware of the break until the game is over?

jfro18 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:34 am

Random wrote: ↑Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:04 am Also, while I'm on the rant (or whatever it is), I'm bringing up the Word of Wisdom (which has been made into a commandment). The "conspiring men" was spot on, and no doubt wheat was healthy in JS's day - but as a prophetic document, it neglected to prophesy how toxic wheat would become to many people 125+ years down the road.

And signs follow them that believe, but the only healing I can find that seems to have existed was the temporary healing that happened when the people were in a swamp. They were sick, but needed to build a city. They were able to heal enough to do a lot of work, then got sick again. How is that any different than the athlete who breaks a bone during a game, but finishes the game unaware of the break until the game is over?

I think the Word of Wisdom suffers from a lot of the same issues that the Book of Abraham does actually.

Joseph claims it's a revelation, but we know that everything he talked about was spoken of in his day - that's the reason "hot drinks" are in there because there was a fear at the time that hot drinks would injure you as you drank them... it's why hot soups were banned early on.

But the problem is that the WoW does *nothing* to predict anything in the future. Imagine how prophetic it would've been if Joseph Smith had said God told him that all members should boil water before drinking it? In fact, shortly after Joseph received the WoW about 12 members died because they did not know about boiling water. That alone says more about the WoW than anything else to me.

It's a document that can be squarely placed in the beliefs of his time, with no value to those before or after it... much like how the Book of Abraham discusses astronomy, race, etc.

That's also true of the Book of Mormon as well, but it's really the overarching problem for Joseph Smith - none of his prophecies amounted to anything, and almost all of his revelations are specific to his milieu, which makes it easy in hindsight to show how he produced all of these works.

Yobispo wrote: ↑Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:07 pm WoW - show me the revelation that changed it to a commandment. Every Mormon can cite Section 89, and it clearly says NOT a commandment.

They simply cannot be honest about anything.

jfro18 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:34 am But the problem is that the WoW does *nothing* to predict anything in the future. Imagine how prophetic it would've been if Joseph Smith had said God told him that all members should boil water before drinking it? In fact, shortly after Joseph received the WoW about 12 members died because they did not know about boiling water. That alone says more about the WoW than anything else to me.

Random wrote: ↑Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:53 pm

jfro18 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:34 am But the problem is that the WoW does *nothing* to predict anything in the future. Imagine how prophetic it would've been if Joseph Smith had said God told him that all members should boil water before drinking it? In fact, shortly after Joseph received the WoW about 12 members died because they did not know about boiling water. That alone says more about the WoW than anything else to me.

I did not know that happened. It definitely would show a God-authorship more than the revelation we have.

I find I am becoming more and more disillusioned. But I cannot go back to not knowing - cannot, as in "I wouldn't want to even if I could."

Random wrote: ↑Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:29 pm The more time passes, the more disillusioned I feel. The Book of Abraham breaks into all belief that JS did more than channel something going on in his imagination. None of the many other things I've learned have put such a hole in me. But the evidence cannot be refuted without doing some mental gymnastics.

For the halibut, I looked up the names of Egyptian Gods. This link was the best one:
Egyptian Gods - the complete list

Random wrote: ↑Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:29 pm The more time passes, the more disillusioned I feel. The Book of Abraham breaks into all belief that JS did more than channel something going on in his imagination. None of the many other things I've learned have put such a hole in me. But the evidence cannot be refuted without doing some mental gymnastics.

For the halibut, I looked up the names of Egyptian Gods. This link was the best one:
Egyptian Gods - the complete list

I think that's why the BoA is such a testimony killer - we have all of the source materials to compare to, and there is just nothing in there that helps Joseph's case in any way, and the apologetics have been debunked time after time because we have the source materials.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:05 pm Everything I have to say is in my annotation of the essay. Please read it and hit me with any questions or objections you come away with:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Logow ... 0qOhleGrdc

Joseph Smith’s explanations of the facsimiles of the book of Abraham contain additional earmarks of the ancient world. Facsimile 1 and Abraham 1:17 mention the idolatrous god Elkenah. This deity is not mentioned in the Bible, yet modern scholars have identified it as being among the gods worshipped by ancient Mesopotamians.39 Joseph Smith represented the four figures in figure 6 of facsimile 2 as “this earth in its four quarters.” A similar interpretation has been argued by scholars who study identical figures in other ancient Egyptian texts.40 Facsimile 1 contains a crocodile deity swimming in what Joseph Smith called “the firmament over our heads.” This interpretation makes sense in light of scholarship that identifies Egyptian conceptions of heaven with “a heavenly ocean.”41

The book of Abraham is consistent with various details found in nonbiblical stories about Abraham that circulated in the ancient world around the time the papyri were likely created. In the book of Abraham, God teaches Abraham about the sun, the moon, and the stars. “I show these things unto thee before ye go into Egypt,” the Lord says, “that ye may declare all these words.”42 Ancient texts repeatedly refer to Abraham instructing the Egyptians in knowledge of the heavens. For example, Eupolemus, who lived under Egyptian rule in the second century B.C.E., wrote that Abraham taught astronomy and other sciences to the Egyptian priests.43 A third-century papyrus from an Egyptian temple library connects Abraham with an illustration similar to facsimile 1 in the book of Abraham.44 A later Egyptian text, discovered in the 20th century, tells how the Pharaoh tried to sacrifice Abraham, only to be foiled when Abraham was delivered by an angel. Later, according to this text, Abraham taught members of the Pharaoh’s court through astronomy.45 All these details are found in the book of Abraham.

Other details in the book of Abraham are found in ancient traditions located across the Near East. These include Terah, Abraham’s father, being an idolator; a famine striking Abraham’s homeland; Abraham’s familiarity with Egyptian idols; and Abraham’s being younger than 75 years old when he left Haran, as the biblical account states. Some of these extrabiblical elements were available in apocryphal books or biblical commentaries in Joseph Smith’s lifetime, but others were confined to nonbiblical traditions inaccessible or unknown to 19th-century Americans.46

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... m?lang=eng

Random wrote: ↑Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:05 pm
Have you read the essay on the new site? Is it the same? I'm asking because I can't recall all you wrote (no photographic memory here), but in a convo with someone else, I looked up the essay and found this just after the Olishem explanation and just before the conclusion, which I didn't recall you addressing.

.....The book of Abraham is consistent with various details found in nonbiblical stories about Abraham that circulated in the ancient world. For example, Eupolemus, who lived under Egyptian rule in the second century B.C.E., wrote that Abraham taught astronomy and other sciences to the Egyptian priests.43 A third-century papyrus from an Egyptian temple library......

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... m?lang=eng