NOM for Thee, NOM for He, or NOM for me?

[Angel]

Great post dirty bird. I love the paradox you eloquently explain! And welcome to the board.

Where does Angel make a black or white comparison? She’s stating how she interacts with family/friends post exodus by focusing on non church interactions.

[When it comes to being a member of or not being a member of the Mormon faith, there is nothing as black or white as the way you appear to be describing it.

Thanks Red. Yes, I've learned to change the subject, do what I can to just talk about the weather or something.

Another abuse victim recently confronted me about that mindset - they felt silenced, they need to talk. I agree, have very carefully selected therapists for the kids - have found secular ashiest endorsed therapists to be best for religious trauma support. This is my circumstance, everyone has different experiences to be sure.

When I speak out against the church it is not against the person still in the church, it is in support of the kids who are within earshot. Kids knowing they have an adult on their side, is more important than hurting the feelings of a current member for me. I have become more sensitive to those who are quiet, silenced, and feel it is important to confront sexist/false authority/"truther" ideologies when they arise. I try to frame it in a way that attacks the ideology rather than the person, but know when people are so mixed up with the ideologies it can feel like an attack against them. Compliment (you are a great cook!) ~ suggestion in support of a different perspective ~ compliment (amazing what you have done with your garden!) - I very much try to keep everything positive, more compliments than criticisms - avoid gloom and doom end-of-the-world thinking. One of the things I have found after leaving the church was a much happier more optimistic view of the world - seeing the positive side of all the other groups, and all the good in all people. When I hear the gloom-and-doomers start up I turn it around - not so bad - those people aren't so bad etc. Carrot/whip, I much prefer carrots.

[Izhmash]

I joined NOM not too long ago after I had left the church. I was hoping for a kinder, more accepting group of people. I was saddened to find even more anger and hatred towards "my people," than I ever felt when I left the church. The ward members for the most part slowly started ignoring me and my family. Some of the better ones still bring us treats on the holidays and no one has progibited their kids from playing with ours. On the contrary, so many in the exmormon community equate Mormonism with conservative politics and hate both. No, I am not a MAGA republican. In fact i am a "do whatever you want as long as you leave me alone," individual. I have a lesbian daughter who I love more than life itself...but I will never wave a rainbow flag in my yard as its not an issue I even remotely care about. Im not a racist. Im as white and blue eyed as they come but my family is mixed race. Im not an uneducated redneck. Master’s degree in Strategic Studies. But to too many exmos, because I don't subscribe to a complete leftist doctrine I am worse than Susan Bednars husband. Because I dont care one bit about the LGBTQ community I must be a neo-nazi, spending my weekends bashing "queers," with rebar. Thats the reason I gave up on this sort of community. I quickly found out that too many of the "members," were as full of, or even more full of, hate and disgust towards me. Whatever. I still have a great wife and kids and a very small group of friends who love me regardless of my beliefs and I have spent too much time with people who demand that I fit into some sort of ficticious mold in order to be considered a worthwhile individual. I

[Mayan_Elephant]

I joined NOM not too long ago after I had left the church. I was hoping for a kinder, more accepting group of people. I was saddened to find even more anger and hatred towards "my people," than I ever felt when I left the church. The ward members for the most part slowly started ignoring me and my family. Some of the better ones still bring us treats on the holidays and no one has progibited their kids from playing with ours. On the contrary, so many in the exmormon community equate Mormonism with conservative politics and hate both. No, I am not a MAGA republican. In fact i am a "do whatever you want as long as you leave me alone," individual. I have a lesbian daughter who I love more than life itself...but I will never wave a rainbow flag in my yard as its not an issue I even remotely care about. Im not a racist. Im as white and blue eyed as they come but my family is mixed race. Im not an uneducated redneck. Master’s degree in Strategic Studies. But to too many exmos, because I don't subscribe to a complete leftist doctrine I am worse than Susan Bednars husband. Because I dont care one bit about the LGBTQ community I must be a neo-nazi, spending my weekends bashing "queers," with rebar. Thats the reason I gave up on this sort of community. I quickly found out that too many of the "members," were as full of, or even more full of, hate and disgust towards me. Whatever. I still have a great wife and kids and a very small group of friends who love me regardless of my beliefs and I have spent too much time with people who demand that I fit into some sort of ficticious mold in order to be considered a worthwhile individual. I

Yep. You are correct.

I don’t give a hoot. The supreme court can yammer about abortion and the people can yammer about the supreme court and I can go to Taco Bell and get a chalupa.

The more the exmo silos carry on about Trump and pretend to be right about all their stereotypes about anyone that didnt vote for Biden or Hillary, the less I think they actually care either. I think its all just a victimization club.

NOM is a tamer place. Stick around and try it. You can, at minimum, acknowledge the stereotyping or Trumpxycontin for what it is and move on. I will push back on it more because of the generalizations about people and the sucker media repetitions than because of any particular politician or ideology.

[Cnsl1]

The hateful NOM described by some has not been my experience.

In some ways, I feel that the experience anyone has with a group of people reflects the attitudes and personality of the person having the experience. That we change the dynamics of the group and the effect the group has on us by the variables we bring to the interaction. And that this is not unique to any particular group, but ubiquitous among humans.

This is not to suggest that people who are abused bring it on themselves. Abusers and other folks with selfish intentions will find those they can abuse and manipulate, even if they have to seek the most vulnerable and innocent who have not yet learned to be wary or cautious.

Also, when people feel they have been duped or deceived, anger is natural. How they handle that anger can be positive or negative, but is usually somewhere in between, and comes and goes in its intensity before finally decaying to mild annoyance then indifference. This is my impression.

And politics has always been something humans have fought about and probably always will, regardless of other things they may agree about. I think that Trump has caused an even greater polarization because of... well, his personality for starters. I think that one difficulty some NOMs might have with some TBMs is the latter's willingness to accept and support Trump because of their history, tradition, and church-sponsored press towards Republican candidates while at the same time diminishing their distaste with the crassness of the individual they are voting for, which obviously goes against their history, tradition, and spirituality. This dichotomy starts to look very much like the cognitive dissonance NOMs recognized within themselves as their religious beliefs changed. And that makes them angry again.

Like him or hate him, Trump is very polarizing. We've seen the effects. Personally, I believe he is a danger for our country, yet if I say that among some Mormon friends, they are apt to assume I love Biden so will tell me how terrible or incompetent he is. I didn't vote for either of those guys. I have found it interesting that there are pockets of conservative TBMs who are losing their belief in the church because they feel the church has lost its conservative footing and is trying to placate the general membership by being more accepting and tolerant when they should be taking a harder line. These folks seem to place Trump as more in tune with God's will that Nelson, and again.. that seems pretty scary to me, and I'm not a fan of Nelson. Russell that is... I love Willie.

[Mayan_Elephant]

The hateful NOM described by some has not been my experience.

In some ways, I feel that the experience anyone has with a group of people reflects the attitudes and personality of the person having the experience. That we change the dynamics of the group and the effect the group has on us by the variables we bring to the interaction. And that this is not unique to any particular group, but ubiquitous among humans.

This is not to suggest that people who are abused bring it on themselves. Abusers and other folks with selfish intentions will find those they can abuse and manipulate, even if they have to seek the most vulnerable and innocent who have not yet learned to be wary or cautious.

Also, when people feel they have been duped or deceived, anger is natural. How they handle that anger can be positive or negative, but is usually somewhere in between, and comes and goes in its intensity before finally decaying to mild annoyance then indifference. This is my impression.

And politics has always been something humans have fought about and probably always will, regardless of other things they may agree about. I think that Trump has caused an even greater polarization because of... well, his personality for starters. I think that one difficulty some NOMs might have with some TBMs is the latter's willingness to accept and support Trump because of their history, tradition, and church-sponsored press towards Republican candidates while at the same time diminishing their distaste with the crassness of the individual they are voting for, which obviously goes against their history, tradition, and spirituality. This dichotomy starts to look very much like the cognitive dissonance NOMs recognized within themselves as their religious beliefs changed. And that makes them angry again.

Like him or hate him, Trump is very polarizing. We've seen the effects. Personally, I believe he is a danger for our country, yet if I say that among some Mormon friends, they are apt to assume I love Biden so will tell me how terrible or incompetent he is. I didn't vote for either of those guys. I have found it interesting that there are pockets of conservative TBMs who are losing their belief in the church because they feel the church has lost its conservative footing and is trying to placate the general membership by being more accepting and tolerant when they should be taking a harder line. These folks seem to place Trump as more in tune with God's will that Nelson, and again.. that seems pretty scary to me, and I'm not a fan of Nelson. Russell that is... I love Willie.

Do you acknowledge that Clinton, Biden and Rachel Maddow are polarizing too? If I said that you were just another folk that places Gavin Newsom as more in tune with God’s will would you find that position credible?

Also a Willie fan here. More Waylon and Hank Jr than Willie though.

[Ghost]

The hateful NOM described by some has not been my experience.

This isn't something I've really seen, either. It's one of the reasons I gravitated toward this group and not any of the "ex-Mormon" ones. NOM really isn't a place in my experience where people mock or insult active members. Occasionally church leaders or the organization itself, maybe, but part of the theme here is that we still have ties to active members and even those of us who have moved on can remember what it was like to have the same mindset as an active member so it's not hard to be charitable toward them.

I don't know whether it was a rule or just an unspoken effort to keep things civil, but people have historically not really talked about politics on NOM in the way they do most other places on the Internet. Or maybe I'm just oblivious because it's never what I've come here to see. Sometimes discussing politics is necessary for context, of course, but my observation is that NOM discussions don't typically include political topics solely for the purpose of drawing a line to show who is on the right team and who isn't, or rehashing the same arguments that you see everywhere else out there.

One reason I've felt the NOM label fits me better than most other labels I've come across is it seems to place relationships and meaningful interactions above being "right" about things and making sure other people know it, and in particular making sure people who are "wrong" know that they are.

[Mayan_Elephant]

The hateful NOM described by some has not been my experience.

This isn't something I've really seen, either. It's one of the reasons I gravitated toward this group and not any of the "ex-Mormon" ones. NOM really isn't a place in my experience where people mock or insult active members. Occasionally church leaders or the organization itself, maybe, but part of the theme here is that we still have ties to active members and even those of us who have moved on can remember what it was like to have the same mindset as an active member so it's not hard to be charitable toward them.

I don't know whether it was a rule or just an unspoken effort to keep things civil, but people have historically not really talked about politics on NOM in the way they do most other places on the Internet. Or maybe I'm just oblivious because it's never what I've come here to see. Sometimes discussing politics is necessary for context, of course, but my observation is that NOM discussions don't typically include political topics solely for the purpose of drawing a line to show who is on the right team and who isn't, or rehashing the same arguments that you see everywhere else out there.

One reason I've felt the NOM label fits me better than most other labels I've come across is it seems to place relationships and meaningful interactions above being "right" about things and making sure other people know it, and in particular making sure people who are "wrong" know that they are.

This, FTW.

[Advocate]

The hateful NOM described by some has not been my experience.

This isn't something I've really seen, either. It's one of the reasons I gravitated toward this group and not any of the "ex-Mormon" ones. NOM really isn't a place in my experience where people mock or insult active members. Occasionally church leaders or the organization itself, maybe, but part of the theme here is that we still have ties to active members and even those of us who have moved on can remember what it was like to have the same mindset as an active member so it's not hard to be charitable toward them.

I don't know whether it was a rule or just an unspoken effort to keep things civil, but people have historically not really talked about politics on NOM in the way they do most other places on the Internet. Or maybe I'm just oblivious because it's never what I've come here to see. Sometimes discussing politics is necessary for context, of course, but my observation is that NOM discussions don't typically include political topics solely for the purpose of drawing a line to show who is on the right team and who isn't, or rehashing the same arguments that you see everywhere else out there.

One reason I've felt the NOM label fits me better than most other labels I've come across is it seems to place relationships and meaningful interactions above being "right" about things and making sure other people know it, and in particular making sure people who are "wrong" know that they are.

Great way of putting it and I agree completely.

I think many of us avoid political discussions on NOM because we seek to build relationships, not find new enemies. If I had a magic wand (or access to the forum code), I would automatically delete any posts that included the words Trump or Biden.

[Mayan_Elephant]

The hateful NOM described by some has not been my experience.

This isn't something I've really seen, either. It's one of the reasons I gravitated toward this group and not any of the "ex-Mormon" ones. NOM really isn't a place in my experience where people mock or insult active members. Occasionally church leaders or the organization itself, maybe, but part of the theme here is that we still have ties to active members and even those of us who have moved on can remember what it was like to have the same mindset as an active member so it's not hard to be charitable toward them.

I don't know whether it was a rule or just an unspoken effort to keep things civil, but people have historically not really talked about politics on NOM in the way they do most other places on the Internet. Or maybe I'm just oblivious because it's never what I've come here to see. Sometimes discussing politics is necessary for context, of course, but my observation is that NOM discussions don't typically include political topics solely for the purpose of drawing a line to show who is on the right team and who isn't, or rehashing the same arguments that you see everywhere else out there.

One reason I've felt the NOM label fits me better than most other labels I've come across is it seems to place relationships and meaningful interactions above being "right" about things and making sure other people know it, and in particular making sure people who are "wrong" know that they are.

Great way of putting it and I agree completely.

I think many of us avoid political discussions on NOM because we seek to build relationships, not find new enemies. If I had a magic wand (or access to the forum code), I would automatically delete any posts that included the words Trump or Biden.

Also a podium post. Thank you. Some of my posts may be deleted, but I do accept the condition if applied.

[Red Ryder]

The hateful NOM described by some has not been my experience.

This isn't something I've really seen, either. It's one of the reasons I gravitated toward this group and not any of the "ex-Mormon" ones. NOM really isn't a place in my experience where people mock or insult active members. Occasionally church leaders or the organization itself, maybe, but part of the theme here is that we still have ties to active members and even those of us who have moved on can remember what it was like to have the same mindset as an active member so it's not hard to be charitable toward them.

I don't know whether it was a rule or just an unspoken effort to keep things civil, but people have historically not really talked about politics on NOM in the way they do most other places on the Internet. Or maybe I'm just oblivious because it's never what I've come here to see. Sometimes discussing politics is necessary for context, of course, but my observation is that NOM discussions don't typically include political topics solely for the purpose of drawing a line to show who is on the right team and who isn't, or rehashing the same arguments that you see everywhere else out there.

One reason I've felt the NOM label fits me better than most other labels I've come across is it seems to place relationships and meaningful interactions above being "right" about things and making sure other people know it, and in particular making sure people who are "wrong" know that they are.

Great way of putting it and I agree completely.

I think many of us avoid political discussions on NOM because we seek to build relationships, not find new enemies. If I had a magic wand (or access to the forum code), I would automatically delete any posts that included the words Trump or Biden.

Just a reminder that we don’t have any active moderators. When the new board was set up, we reached out to a few people who said no to being moderators. So we thought, let’s see how it goes and let people moderate themselves.

It’s worked for the most part and only a few posts have been deleted over the years. Primarily my garment rants. . With that said, I’ll remind people that you can always report a post and someone will follow up with a resolution.

We can also put in a word replacement thingy to censor bad words etc. we could just replace any politicians name with Jesus that way everyone is always talking about Jesus.

Keep Calm and NOM on!

[Dirty Bird]

Great post dirty bird. I love the paradox you eloquently explain! And welcome to the board.

Where does Angel make a black or white comparison? She’s stating how she interacts with family/friends post exodus by focusing on non church interactions.

[When it comes to being a member of or not being a member of the Mormon faith, there is nothing as black or white as the way you appear to be describing it.

I believe that Angel and I have different opinions regarding whether or not Mormonism is a cult. Is it a religious cult? Although I believe that becoming a member of this organization can be somewhat pricey, I do not consider it to be a cult. In addition, I think that if it is practiced in the right way, Mormonism has the potential to bring about a lot of positive change in a person's life. Is it better to tell a convicted felon that finds Mormonism in jail that he is in a "cult" and tell him that he needs to find a different compass to guide him along the path of his life, or is it better to let him keep living Mormonism if it completely turns around his life and allows him to live a productive life in the real world? Should a single mother in Argentina who hasn't had any friends and no relatives to speak of for the past ten years who discovers a community that accepts her inside the ward she decided to join, to stop going to church because some people believe she would be better off outside of Mormonism?

The majority of the people I know have a very difficult time figuring out how to spend their roughly 30,000 days on this planet in a way that is stress-free and tranquil. Who am I to tell someone else that they need to find a new way to live that is peaceful and in harmony with what they believe in the event that Mormonism brings someone joy and contentment and makes it possible for them to live the bulk of their life in a meaningful and constructive way?

When you truly sit down and give it some thought, you'll see that religions are essentially just an early kind of counseling or psychotherapy. Some people turn to religion as a form of therapy, others use religion in conjunction with therapy, still others utilize only contemporary forms of therapy, and then there are those like me, who turn to none of these approaches because we are at peace with our mortality and are unconcerned with what lies beyond. Therefore, when viewed in this manner, religion demonstrates why it is rational to just let people be who they choose to be.

I don't think one can say Mormonism is a cult and that's the end of the story. It's not that black or white in my opinion.

[Red Ryder]

I don't think one can say Mormonism is a cult and that's the end of the story. It's not that black or white in my opinion.

Thanks for the lengthy reply. I agree and think the C word is low hanging fruit on the Mormon tree that critics love to pick from.

The book Sapiens really puts into prospective how we evolved to trust each other as humans began to migrate into large group communities.

When there is a small group of people, individuals can know and trust each other because of the personal dynamics at play. When the group grows to 25 or more, say between 25-100 people, personal relationships become less available with everyone. Thus the group relies on gossip, prior working relationships, and vouching for each other to bridge the lack of personal intimate relationships. When the groups get over 100 people, it becomes about the ability to quickly recognize friend from foe. Same religious beliefs, same sports team jerseys, and same likes and interests, and political views become a quick way to recognize a friend.

Mormonism while portraying many cult like attributes isn’t a traditional cult like the moonies, branch davidians, or Jim Jones. It’s become a main stream religion that benefits many people. I won’t discount those good experiences, nor ignore the bad. I prefer to sit down with anyone and listen to their stories rather than point fingers and yell “you’re in a cult”. But then again, I’m happy to laugh at myself and tell the unsuspecting non-mormon I also grew up in a cult.

[Mayan_Elephant]

It’s worked for the most part and only a few posts have been deleted over the years. Primarily my garment rants. . With that said, I’ll remind people that you can always report a post and someone will follow up with a resolution.

We can also put in a word replacement thingy to censor bad words etc. we could just replace any politicians name with Jesus that way everyone is always talking about Jesus.

Keep Calm and NOM on!

Am I in co-trouble for responding to that?

[Hagoth]

I have had an interesting experience with Mormons and Mormonism over the past few years. There was a time when I wanted to get as far away from my ward and the people in it as possible. Now I find, more and more, that I love many of the people in my ward and genuinely enjoy spending time with them.

I came to a few realizations that helped this happen:

First, I got over much of my anger about the church. I still think some of the top leaders are, to varying degrees, out-of-touch bigots and narcissists, but I also understand that they were chosen, promoted, indoctrinated, and nurtured specifically to that end, and they are so highly motivated to believe the story that they are likely beyond ever getting out of their maze. Although I despise much of what these men say and represent, I understand that my neighbors and friends are to some degree the victims of those behaviors as much as they are participants. I think the church might be a pretty good place to be if you lopped off everyone above, I dunno, the 5th floor of the COB.

Second, I started to discover who I am apart from the church and to feel confident in my right to be that person.

Third, I realized that ALL religion is made up, but that most people are going to attach themselves to one of them for fairly sensible reasons that have to do with community and finding meaning in life.

Fourth, I came to realize that spirituality is a real thing that belongs to each of us, and we don't need religions to spoon feed it to us, although many people do depend on their religion for that.

Fifth, I understand that I am on the outside of a box that I was once inside along with them. I can understand why they say and do the things they do and say, but I can't expect them to understand why I feel and believe the way I do.

Sixth, my life is just so much better when I can explore my own mind and spirituality without constantly bumping into someone else's arbitrary walls.

Seventh, I realize that some people really like having a list of checkboxes to adhere to. They would probably be very uncomfortable floating in the cosmos that now feels like home to me.

Eighth, In the Age of Internet I see many stalwart families around me facing the crisis of seeing their kids leave the church. It used to be rare, but now it seems more common than not (and/or come out as LBGTQ+). I can't help but feel some compassion for them, but also joy to see their worlds stretched a little bit larger, their obligation to condemn others softened, and their perspective on who deserves their love broadened.

[Red Ryder]

It’s worked for the most part and only a few posts have been deleted over the years. Primarily my garment rants. . With that said, I’ll remind people that you can always report a post and someone will follow up with a resolution.

We can also put in a word replacement thingy to censor bad words etc. we could just replace any politicians name with Jesus that way everyone is always talking about Jesus.

Keep Calm and NOM on!

Am I in co-trouble for responding to that?

No, I deleted my post because it mirrored some Sister Ryder circumstances I realized should remain private. But I loved your vibratory response!

[alas]

On the old NOM, using the word cult was against the guidelines because the meaning is imprecise and its use just makes some people angry and doesn’t accomplish any understanding. There were some good reasons for the word being banned. Does the church have some cult like tendencies? Yes. Is it the kind of cult that gets people to commit mass suicide or killed in an FBI raid because its top leader is sexually abusing children? No. Being a cult is a continuum, sort of like a bell curve. All religions have some cult like tendencies or they would fall apart in a few weeks. Most religions fall somewhere in the middle. Mormonism is not to the far end of that spectrum, but may be closer to that extreme than some other religions and still further away than others. So, I personally don’t like the word because too many people think black and white and saying cult is just calling nasty names and offending people. It does not convey any real meaning other than that the person saying it doesn’t like the church. In my opinion

In line with what others have said about we here at NOM put relationships above being right, I am going to ask that we just not use the word. We can call Mormonism a high demand religion. That is true but not offensive and is not a word that people react to with anger. So, out of respect and friendship for our fellow NOMs, leave that word out of discussions.

Let’s focus here on the things we have in common, not focus on the things we don’t.

There is a special forum for discussions not related to Mormonism, called “the coffee shop”. If you want to avoid politics, just don’t go to that forum and stay with the Mormonism forums. If political discussions happen, they should only be there. Yes, the church is more political than some of us like, and maybe that belongs in the Mormon forums. So, while some of us object to the Republican leaning church, we can voice those objections as how we felt being the bad mouthed minority, without attacking the church or the members in anger.

My experience at NOM is that it has always been much less angry than other Mormon discussion sites. That is why I am here, because I just don’t like anger at other discussion groups.

[Angel]

I believe that Angel and I have different opinions regarding whether or not Mormonism is a cult.... Is it better to tell a convicted felon that finds Mormonism in jail that he is in a "cult"

Is it better to tell someone with cancer they can get a cheap fix with essential oils? Or is it best to send them to an expensive, trained, licensed doctor at a real hospital.

Is it better for a convict to study the book of Mormon? Or to spend their time getting a degree that will make them a productive member of society if they get out?

Is it better to avoid/deny/enable/forgive predators? or is it better to report them to law enforcement officers.

You have to understand. He was convicted from one little usb drive that had 18 years of videos - the age of his oldest child. He was going to LDS's church "addiction recovery" group for his entire adult life. Temple marriage after temple marriage - child after child - year after year after year - all the while the church enabled him to continue abuse. He was a counselor in the bishopric, led boy scouts, worked with YM - he was in leadership roles with kids this entire time.

Want to know why there are more addiction support groups than victim support groups in the church? It's because victims know the church will not report, will not testify in court for them, the church is not on the side of victims. These little kids were told "aren't you so proud of your dad? he is such a wonderful leader - we know he is called of god" - told to be good little kids, follow their dad - had to sing that song to him, "I'm so glad when daddy comes home". Want to know why they are autistic? want to know why they have eating disorders and cut themselves? want to know how many times they have been in and out of hospitals?

[Angel]

The hateful NOM described by some has not been my experience.

In some ways, I feel that the experience anyone has with a group of people reflects the attitudes and personality of the person having the experience. That we change the dynamics of the group and the effect the group has on us by the variables we bring to the interaction. And that this is not unique to any particular group, but ubiquitous among humans.

There is an old parable about that.

https://wiki.c2.com/?ParableOfTheTwoVillages
A man who was traveling came upon a farmer working in his field and asked him what the people in the next village were like. The farmer asked "What were the people like in the last village you visited?" The man responded "They were kind, friendly, generous, great people." "You'll find the people in the next village are the same," said the farmer.
Another man who was traveling to the same village came up to the same farmer somewhat later and asked him what the people in the next village were like. Again the farmer asked "What were the people like in the last village you visited?" The second man responded, "They were rude, unfriendly, dishonest people." "You'll find the people in the next village are the same," said the farmer.

This is not to suggest that people who are abused bring it on themselves. Abusers and other folks with selfish intentions will find those they can abuse and manipulate, even if they have to seek the most vulnerable and innocent who have not yet learned to be wary or cautious.

Also, when people feel they have been duped or deceived, anger is natural. How they handle that anger can be positive or negative, but is usually somewhere in between, and comes and goes in its intensity before finally decaying to mild annoyance then indifference. This is my impression.

Yes, I have quite a bit of anger in me still. The parable that has helped me with my anger is the Taoist "empty boat". Quite a few versions of it, but here is one:

"An ancient Chinese philosopher named Zhuang Zhou wrote about a man traveling across a river in his boat when he noticed another boat quickly coming straight for him. The man began waving his arms and calling out to the boat’s driver to change course. As the boat closed in on him, he cursed and shouted louder. As the two boats collided, he screamed out, threatening the driver and calling him horrible names. But then he made a discovery. The other boat was empty — it had no driver at all. The current of the river had caused the collision. The man immediately stopped yelling because why would anyone scream threats at an empty boat?"

It's just the natural current, just the laws of nature, just the cult they were brought up in, that his wife was brought up in, that his mother was brought up in, and their physical disease.

And politics has always been something humans have fought about and probably always will, regardless of other things they may agree about.

We had a guest speaker from google who told us a story about the information that is fed to us.

AI/ML - they gave it a goal, keep people on their computers for as long as possible in order to increase add revenue.... so the programs tried different strategies - AI isn't an analytic code, it uses heuristics - numerical methods - try this combination, does it work? if yes, then save that - if not, try this other thing. It's not like a 3D graph where you have just 3 variables and you can see how they interact. There are hundreds, thousands of variables - cannot graph it - higher dimensions to explore - but the code finds it, the optimum combination of them all. The winning combination to keep people glued to their screens? this is a little simplistic version of the answer, but it essentially boils down to first profiling them - profile religious/political/hobby (sports team, diet, career etc.)/health/age/gender/race/income - profile them. Step 2 is to surround them in their bubble - by content that is the same as them, that makes them feel connected with others, givers them community. Step 3 is to show them more and more extreme versions of what they like. Vegetarian? make them vegan. Into exercise? suggest they should exercise a little more. Politics? Pull them a little more left, a little more right.

Works like a charm.
People stay on their screens. consume their bubble (and buy stuff, and vote for stuff - and google collects $$ from both parties involved), and... users become addicted extremists.

Quite amazing how easily AI is manipulating everyone right now. Not just programs - this is religion too, create bubble (have to mold people rather than environment, a little harder), read your scriptures each day - repetition - it takes repetition to learn that song, to form neural pathways, to build testimony, to brainwash. Some religious groups understand how to keep things new and exciting by pulling to more extreme views - the internet uses more powerful indoctrination tools than religion now... chatgpt has been bought by Christians - is trained with limited biased info. Competition will come, the monopoly won't last. The age of information haha.

[Wonderment]

Alas:

My experience at NOM is that it has always been much less angry than other Mormon discussion sites. That is why I am here, because I just don’t like anger at other discussion groups

This is true. Way back in 2008, we used to have a another discussion group called "The Foyer", or FLAK- Further Light and Knowledge. They had a very good moderator, Solipstics, who sadly passed away. Then for awhile, the board was taken over by some people who were very angry at the church's interference and opposition to Prop. 8 in California, which would have allowed same-sex marriage. The church spent almost $ 40 million to oppose that, and when same-sex rights were voted down, then gay people already married to their partners, had their marriage in jeopardy, as well as the legal status of their children.


I think that Mayan Elephant was part of that discussion board for awhile. That board did have some angry ex-Mo's who were members of the LGBT community.
But this is a completely different board, and people here are usually very kind to each other.

When a person leaves a high-demand, conservative church and rejects the orthodoxy, sometimes the person also rejects the rigid social beliefs of the organization. They reject the idea that women, people of color, and LGBT people are inferior and will occupy a lower place in the eternities. They reject the idea that non-Mormons, or gentiles, are deceived by Satan. They reject the idea that women cannot think for themselves and therefore must marry early and start producing children, in obedience to their husband. They reject the bigotry, racism, and exclusion of the church. They reject those suffocating ideas. They can no longer accept the intolerance and prejudices of the church.

So, yes, they will speak out about leaving those beliefs and ideas behind, because that is a core part of leaving the church. Those are the ideas that polarize and hurt people.

Do you acknowledge that Clinton, Biden and Rachel Maddow are polarizing too? If I said that you were just another folk that places Gavin Newsom as more in tune with God’s will would you find that position credible?

No, I do not. I do not think there is any moral equivalent between any of these people and Donald Trump. In fact, there is no moral equivalent between Donald Trump and any U.S. President in American history. You cannot "both sides" a man who calls for the termination of the U.S. Constitution. You cannot "both sides" a man who insists that he won an election by millions of votes when there is no evidence whatsoever of that.
You cannot "both sides" a man who creates intense tribalism by railing against women, people of color, LGBT people, or anyone who disagrees with him. His bias is the same as the First Presidency. There is only one way to believe, one true prophet, and everyone else is condemned to outer darkness.

In 15 years here, I have never said ONE WORD about politics. But since you bring it up, let's address it head on. First of all, I like the penguin. I like his whimsical humor and his gentle observations on the world. He kindly points out racism and sexism when he sees it. I don't want a message board where intolerance is promoted towards women, LGBT people, people of color, gentiles, or anyone else to whom the First Presidency is opposed.

I don't want an internet version of the prejudices of the church or the conspiracy theories of the church. I don't want to have to tolerate people who believe that women are inferior, that they are property of their husbands, that their place is to be smiling, submissive subservient, and locked in the home while their husband orders them around.
That polarization and divisiveness is what we left behind.
I don't think you can "both sides" an issue, when one side works 24/7 to gin up as much rage and hatred about conspiracies as possible, then announces that Biden and Clinton are polarizing. There's only one side that fomented a violent rebellion against our U.S. Capitol, which we all watched on television. There's only one side that continues to push the conspiracy theory of a stolen election despite ZERO evidence.

I think it's perfectly understandable that people seeking a new life away from the control and dominion of the church, will look for new ideas of acceptance and tolerance towards people they were formerly taught to shun.
So, further discussion of politics should be moved to the coffee shop. JMO -- Wndr.

[Mayan_Elephant]

Thanks Wonder.

I accept the proposal.