NOM

wtfluff wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:31 pm Another thing that should probably be mentioned in this thread is that at some point, they began using the "Urim and Thummim" moniker for both the magic brown egg rock, and the magic pre-historic anachronistic spectacles.

The Old Testament Urim and Thummin was a breastplate with two yes/no stones attached via tassels. Spectacles were invented in 13th Century Italy by glassblowers who had discovered that a curved lens could help magnify objects.

I still want to know if it was really the hat that was magic. Anyone got any feelings that can lead them to such knowledge?

You mean like a hat that could sort maidens into House Smith, House Kimball, House Pratt, and House Young? "You could do marvelous things in House Young. No? Well, then to House Kimball with you!"

Linked wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:34 am Is there a CES Letter type summary that covers the harm done by the current church? Combining all the stuff that has been done in the last 30 years and that is ongoing now, like what you mention above. I think that would be amazing.

There would be a lot of nuance and/or weighting of the different areas depending on how you wanted to classify or illustrate what harm means, but it would be an interesting list for someone to put together.

jfro18 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:25 pm

Linked wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:34 am Is there a CES Letter type summary that covers the harm done by the current church? Combining all the stuff that has been done in the last 30 years and that is ongoing now, like what you mention above. I think that would be amazing.

There would be a lot of nuance and/or weighting of the different areas depending on how you wanted to classify or illustrate what harm means, but it would be an interesting list for someone to put together.

Yeah, it would probably come off as an angry anti mormon list of claimed harms. I'm not sure how it could be summarized more objectively, if that is possible at all. I suppose putting a summary like that together in the first place is not objective... But the mormon church is objectively scandalous.

But a list of instances of deceit or covering up or behind the scenes political meddling, or obvious gaslighting, or talking out of both sides of their mouths, or clearly harming people, etc. Missed on Sunday is kind of up that alley. Several RFM episodes too. And Brother Jake.

- Mark Hoffman
- Ronald Poelman re-recording
- Paul H. Dunn
- Recent retractions for Jeff Holland and Russ Nelson stories as covered by RFM and Bill Reel
- Abuse cover-ups and hush money paid
- Stipend vs. no paid clergy
- Prop 8
- The history of the Proclamation on the Family (Hawaii gay marriage)
- Missions
- Money money money

wtfluff wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:31 pm Another thing that should probably be mentioned in this thread is that at some point, they began using the "Urim and Thummim" moniker for both the magic brown egg rock, and the magic pre-historic anachronistic spectacles.

I think Joseph's followers added the embellishment of the Urim and Thummim translation device because they did not want people thinking Joseph just pulled the story out of his hat.

moksha wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:01 pm

wtfluff wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:31 pm Another thing that should probably be mentioned in this thread is that at some point, they began using the "Urim and Thummim" moniker for both the magic brown egg rock, and the magic pre-historic anachronistic spectacles.

I think Joseph's followers added the embellishment of the Urim and Thummim translation device because they did not want people thinking Joseph just pulled the story out of his hat.

Of course.

(Magic dice are so, so much better!)

wtfluff wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:06 pm

moksha wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:01 pm I think Joseph's followers added the embellishment of the Urim and Thummim translation device because they did not want people thinking Joseph just pulled the story out of his hat.

Of course.

(Magic dice are so, so much better!)