Keeping up with Trump

[dogbite]

I think Russia influenced it, yes. They had the troll farms and fake news stories and sites. That's been shown. They tried to get involved directly with the Trump campaign.

Sufficient to make Trump win when he otherwise might have lost? I don't think that's been established.

As to finding nothing, Bannon, Manafort, Barrack (though over UAE, not Russia), Cohen(one of his charges was related to Russia meddling), Gates, Nader, Papadopoulos, Stone were charged. Most eventually pardoned which constitutes an admission of guilt.

34 people were charged and 3 corporations too from Mueller's investigation. That's far from nothing.

[dogbite]

As to who benefited. Trump did. And also Putin in getting an easily manipulated leader who would retreat from Europe and the World stage. It also threw the US electoral process and belief in into a shambles, further benefiting Putin.

But back to did it help Trump win. I don't think this can be quantified. There is no way to ask enough voters the questions. And there is no way for voters to get past the introspection illusion to have a real answer.

[Cnsl1]

It feels especially tragic to watch the massive promulgation of disinformation unfold in real time. We're no longer living in the information age, but the marketing attention age. Our attention is a product, and it's easy to be fooled by things we kind of want to believe anyway. Maybe it's easier for younger people to be easily swayed by every whim of fantasy. I know that I was more easily convinced of crap when I was younger.

The information age made it difficult for organizations like the LDS church to continue delivering an unsustainable message because it's now relatively simple to check stories and data yourself. While there is a ton of misinformation on the internet, it's also pretty easy to find reliable and documented information regarding timelines, well-researched history, and science. Plus, this ever growing body of data we call science has become ever growing and larger. Technology has allowed us to view the past with greater clarity and better certainty then make better informed decisions moving forward.

At the same time, our attention is now being bought and sold. It is truly a social dilemma. Almost any outlandish claim can supported by someone with a blog or media post.

Trump can make a suggestion because he misunderstands a businessman's description of mask delivery, for instance,
which causes a ripple wave that becomes a tidal wave when a besieged governor is asked to comment on back-stored masks that Trump said he had, which pisses off the governor and causes a tsunami and lost resources looking for the damned stored masks, which there weren't any, and Trump never said there were, just didn't listen to his guys very well and can't keep his mouth shut long enough to understand,
and seems to like stirring the pot and getting people riled up at those he doesn't already like.

I watched THAT particular scene play out right in front of me very early in the pandemic. Trump said "NYC needs more special face masks. They don't have enough. So I got these guys I know, these business guys to kick ass and make more masks for NYC. Let me let them tell you..."

The guys get up and say... "uh, yeah, we're making more masks. We used to make like 100 a day for NYC and now we're making 1,000 a day because of this need. We're getting it done. " (i could be wrong on the numbers, i don't remember what the specific numbers were).

Then Trump gets right back up and says. "Did you hear that? They were making 100 for NYC and now they're making 1,000. I don't know where those 900 masks are. Are they stuck in a warehouse someplace?"

The guys kinda looked at him oddly. No one said anything. I said it. "No, you dumb ass. They're making more cuz they NEED more right now. That's what they said. The masks are getting used. "

It's stuff like that. Trump says something stupid and people run with it. Because he says it with some authority or because he's who he is he should know. Prior to 2016, you could have affairs and be elected president, but it wasn't easy and you damn sure better not get caught having one while you're running for president. But you couldn't talk crassly about grabbing a woman's p#$$%, you couldn't publicly say what he said, you couldn't make outrageous claims about Mexico paying for a wall, you couldn't have the suspect business and marital history that he had and get elected. You'd be laughed off as a joke. But by God, Trump did it. He promotes himself well. He once said "if you don't toot your own horn no one else will," which is something I'd heard my grandfather say. Trump projects ton of confidence and inspires both fanaticism and fear by those near him. But now.. a short 6 years later, 60% of people in our country want to see him locked up. Most of us are sick of him. Most of us realize how damned close he came to wrecking our democracy right in front of us. A diminishing minority still thinks he's some kind of savior.

And.. a lot of people still believe the earth is about 6k years old too despite the large amount of evidence to the contrary.

[SaidNobody]

I think Russia influenced it, yes. They had the troll farms and fake news stories and sites. That's been shown. They tried to get involved directly with the Trump campaign.

Sufficient to make Trump win when he otherwise might have lost? I don't think that's been established.

As to finding nothing, Bannon, Manafort, Barrack (though over UAE, not Russia), Cohen(one of his charges was related to Russia meddling), Gates, Nader, Papadopoulos, Stone were charged. Most eventually pardoned which constitutes an admission of guilt.

34 people were charged and 3 corporations too from Mueller's investigation. That's far from nothing.

It was nothing. It had nothing to do with the election or even Trump. That you approve of tormenting people until they confess is just sad. Some of those people withdraw their cooperation when they realized that FBI was out of line.

[moksha]

Trump says something stupid and people run with it.

It suddenly becomes an echo chamber for stupidity. The final premise of Trumpers is that if you lie with enough consistency, then it somehow becomes true.

[stealthbishop]

If they couldn't even get a tiny bit of traction in the courts of several different states with their false claims then I just can't take what they say seriously. Why did what they said to the right wing news outlets differ from what they said in the courts? Because this 1000 mule lie is just that--a lie. If Trump appointed judges don't take this seriously why should I or anyone else?

[SaidNobody]

As to who benefited. Trump did. And also Putin in getting an easily manipulated leader who would retreat from Europe and the World stage. It also threw the US electoral process and belief in into a shambles, further benefiting Putin.

But back to did it help Trump win. I don't think this can be quantified. There is no way to ask enough voters the questions. And there is no way for voters to get past the introspection illusion to have a real answer.

This breaks my heart. Obama drew a red line in the sand with Putin, then when Putin kicked that sand in Obama's face, Obama was like, "you naughty, naughty boy. Cut it out." Putin takes Crimea. Obama kicks Putin out of the G8. But Russians are people too. They are suffering and their talents are not being added to the global product. Instead, they suffer, and they don't care because, hey, suffering is what they do.

I love Russia. I love Russian people. Trump loves the Russian people. He could have brought Russia back into the G8 and everyone could have benefitted. And he could have made deals with Putin to stop the invasion of Ukraine. But no, everyone was trying to connect him to Russia. Putin didn't manipulate Trump, not once. Trump was forced to hold him at arm's length because any deal would have been seen as being manipulated.

So here we are with Russia on the rampage, they invaded Ukraine. Trump would have stopped that, would have Putin in a placed he wouldn't have dared to invade, but he couldn't say Boo to Russia without the hate coming at him. Honestly, that really upsets me. Obama and Biden LET Putin invade Ukraine, yet people still pretend it was Trump in bed with Putin. People say look at the facts, but those same people won't look at the facts. Both footholds that Russia has in Ukraine were under Democrat watch, yet Trump, Russia, Trump. Then the guy above this post cries about disinformation, but I know exactly where he got his information. They think checking mainstream media is getting the facts and it's the complete opposite.

Hunter Biden was literally on the Board of the company being investigated by the prosecutor that Joe Biden had fired. Hunter had information on his laptop about illegal deals with China. Hunter is/was on the board of a multi-billion-dollar company in China. Biden sold us out to China and we are still trying to convict Trump for the Jan 6th setup. Anyone who watched the live videos being posted by people would see that it was a setup. The police left the site. What if the police had left the Supreme Court when Kavanaugh was appointed? Protestors would have ripped that place to shreds, but the guards didn't leave.

Your hate, their hate, means Trump will never get a fair trial. Like you said, even if they have to get him on mail fraud. And they would if they could. Trump went into the presidential office with billions of more dollars than when he came out. Obama on the hand came out with a lot more money than when he went in. He brought a $25 million home, yet presidents don't make that much money unless they are selling the office.

[SaidNobody]

Trump says something stupid and people run with it.

It suddenly becomes an echo chamber for stupidity. The final premise of Trumpers is that if you lie with enough consistency, then it somehow becomes true.

Come on, my good fellow, you are living in an echo chamber of lies too. CNN, ABC, NBC, BBC, are all lying. They've all been bought by big dollars.

[SaidNobody]

If they couldn't even get a tiny bit of traction in the courts of several different states with their false claims then I just can't take what they say seriously. Why did what they said to the right wing news outlets differ from what they said in the courts? Because this 1000 mule lie is just that--a lie. If Trump appointed judges don't take this seriously why should I or anyone else?

The lack of traction was a lack of standing. Almost every case was thrown out for lack of standing, not for lack of evidence. I was watching two or three cases personally and they had merit. One was the PA government had passed, strong-arming the legislation, that went against the constitution of PA. It was illegal, but the courts said, "not our problem." It's still illegal. The mail-in ballots that mysteriously won day, were against the constitution. You are supposed to show up in person until you have a legit reason you cannot. The courts didn't touch it, not for lack of cause, but because they didn't feel like it was their place to fix it.

[stealthbishop]

I also read their arguments very closely and what they were arguing in these courts was very different than what they were saying in public and on the right-wing news programs. We know why they did that.

If it was indeed illegal as you say then there should have been some traction in at least one or some of the courts right on up to the supreme court. Instead it was nothing. They lost everything they put forward. Whether it was illegal or lack of standing they lost over and over again.

[dogbite]

It was nothing. It had nothing to do with the election or even Trump. That you approve of tormenting people until they confess is just sad. Some of those people withdraw their cooperation when they realized that FBI was out of line.

This is simple ignorance. All it takes to stop the questioning is to have your lawyer indicate you're done cooperating. They all had lawyers. They were free to withdraw their cooperation. And they were still found guilty from other evidence.

[dogbite]

The lack of traction was a lack of standing. Almost every case was thrown out for lack of standing, not for lack of evidence. I was watching two or three cases personally and they had merit. One was the PA government had passed, strong-arming the legislation, that went against the constitution of PA. It was illegal, but the courts said, "not our problem." It's still illegal. The mail-in ballots that mysteriously won day, were against the constitution. You are supposed to show up in person until you have a legit reason you cannot. The courts didn't touch it, not for lack of cause, but because they didn't feel like it was their place to fix it.

Standing is significant. It goes to showing harm from the law or action. That they couldn't find a harmed plaintiff for purposes of standing indicates the lack of merit to the case. Trump wasn't harmed, the voters weren't harmed, the election wasn't harmed.

[dogbite]

[

It was nothing. It had nothing to do with the election or even Trump. That you approve of tormenting people until they confess is just sad. Some of those people withdraw their cooperation when they realized that FBI was out of line.

This is simple ignorance. All it takes to stop the questioning is to have your lawyer indicate you're done cooperating. They all had lawyers. They were free to withdraw their cooperation. And they were still found guilty from other evidence.

The courts seem to have recognized that running an in-person election in a highly communicable pandemic requires reasonable accomodation.

[dogbite]

Trump loves the Russian people.

As a statement of faith, fine. As a statement of evidence, doubtful. Trump says he loves everyone all the time. His actions look more like he loves only himself.

He could have brought Russia back into the G8 and everyone could have benefitted. And he could have made deals with Putin to stop the invasion of Ukraine. But no, everyone was trying to connect him to Russia. Putin didn't manipulate Trump, not once. Trump was forced to hold him at arm's length because any deal would have been seen as being manipulated.

Trump couldn't on his own, there wasn't support from the rest of the 7. indeed, Trump stymied the G7, but he couldn't make them do what he wanted beyond being obstructionist.

So here we are with Russia on the rampage, they invaded Ukraine. Trump would have stopped that, would have Putin in a placed he wouldn't have dared to invade, but he couldn't say Boo to Russia without the hate coming at him. Honestly, that really upsets me. Obama and Biden LET Putin invade Ukraine, yet people still pretend it was Trump in bed with Putin. People say look at the facts, but those same people won't look at the facts. Both footholds that Russia has in Ukraine were under Democrat watch, yet Trump, Russia, Trump. Then the guy above this post cries about disinformation, but I know exactly where he got his information. They think checking mainstream media is getting the facts and it's the complete opposite.

Again, not in evidence and highly doubtful. Trumps policies were all isolationist. His quid pro quo request to Ukraine show he wasn't interested in them for their sake, but only for his own.

Hunter Biden was literally on the Board of the company being investigated by the prosecutor that Joe Biden had fired. Hunter had information on his laptop about illegal deals with China. Hunter is/was on the board of a multi-billion-dollar company in China. Biden sold us out to China and we are still trying to convict Trump for the Jan 6th setup. Anyone who watched the live videos being posted by people would see that it was a setup. The police left the site. What if the police had left the Supreme Court when Kavanaugh was appointed? Protestors would have ripped that place to shreds, but the guards didn't leave.

Hunter Biden has nothing to do with anything but an attempt by Trump to smear Hunter's father. His being on boards is not a crime nor illegal. I'm happy to agree that Hunter used family name leverage to have the career he had. But evidence of wrongdoing simply isn't actually there.

Your hate, their hate, means Trump will never get a fair trial. Like you said, even if they have to get him on mail fraud. And they would if they could. Trump went into the presidential office with billions of more dollars than when he came out. Obama on the hand came out with a lot more money than when he went in. He brought a $25 million home, yet presidents don't make that much money unless they are selling the office.

I don't think I said anything hateful about Trump. I don't like or respect him. I don't like or respect Hillary either. Nor Biden, though less so than either Trump or HIllary.

As to the money, Obama published all his financials. You can trace the wealth if you were really interested. Trump never published minimal to no financials so you have no idea how much he may have really lost or gained. But if you want to see how Obama could do it, try

https://www.reviewjournal.com/life/pres ... ite-house/

[SaidNobody]

[

It was nothing. It had nothing to do with the election or even Trump. That you approve of tormenting people until they confess is just sad. Some of those people withdraw their cooperation when they realized that FBI was out of line.

This is simple ignorance. All it takes to stop the questioning is to have your lawyer indicate you're done cooperating. They all had lawyers. They were free to withdraw their cooperation. And they were still found guilty from other evidence.

The courts seem to have recognized that running an in-person election in a highly communicable pandemic requires reasonable accomodation.

I guess on your news channels they skipped the threats of ruination that FBI and DOJ gave these people? It wasn't pretty. It was more like Stalin's Russia than America. Even so, some wouldn't cave. Again, guilty of what? Talking to a guy in a bar? Failing to report taxable income or gifts from other countries? (No had been convicted on that law.) Government is meant to make things fair, but with Trump, it was used a club to beat anyone that didn't submit their demands. That isn't a free country. It wasn't fair, it harmed a lot of innocent people. Who did they harm? Who did Trump harm?

[SaidNobody]

Trump loves the Russian people.

As a statement of faith, fine. As a statement of evidence, doubtful. Trump says he loves everyone all the time. His actions look more like he loves only himself.

His children are basically half Russian. They spent summers with their grandparents, in Czechoslovakia. They stood in breadlines to get food because that is what their grandparents did. I think it is so blind to say that Trump loves only himself. There are hundreds of stories where he went out of his way to help people. Sometimes for show, sometimes on the down-low. He donated his private and crews so a kid could get surgery in LA because the airlines wouldn't take him. He would take a day every year to do the jobs of his employees so he could relate, like making the beds and cleaning the toilets. He was friends with common people like the cab drivers and doorman. He built homes for tens of thousands of low and middle-income people because they needed it. Anyone saying that Trump only loved himself isn't looking at Trump. The city of New York hated Trump because he was always suing them and winning and they constantly bad-mouthed him.

He could have brought Russia back into the G8 and everyone could have benefitted. And he could have made deals with Putin to stop the invasion of Ukraine. But no, everyone was trying to connect him to Russia. Putin didn't manipulate Trump, not once. Trump was forced to hold him at arm's length because any deal would have been seen as being manipulated.

Trump couldn't on his own, there wasn't support from the rest of the 7. indeed, Trump stymied the G7, but he couldn't make them do what he wanted beyond being obstructionist.

Of course, he couldn't have done it on his own. He didn't do much on his own. He was a leader. He could have lead. True, he didn't like what the G8 stood for and he didn't like that a few countries, even if powerful, got to dictate to the rest of the world.

So here we are with Russia on the rampage, they invaded Ukraine. Trump would have stopped that, would have Putin in a placed he wouldn't have dared to invade, but he couldn't say Boo to Russia without the hate coming at him. Honestly, that really upsets me. Obama and Biden LET Putin invade Ukraine, yet people still pretend it was Trump in bed with Putin. People say look at the facts, but those same people won't look at the facts. Both footholds that Russia has in Ukraine were under Democrat watch, yet Trump, Russia, Trump. Then the guy above this post cries about disinformation, but I know exactly where he got his information. They think checking mainstream media is getting the facts and it's the complete opposite.

Again, not in evidence and highly doubtful. Trumps policies were all isolationist. His quid pro quo request to Ukraine show he wasn't interested in them for their sake, but only for his own.

Foreign aid is quid pro quo, simple as that.

Hunter Biden was literally on the Board of the company being investigated by the prosecutor that Joe Biden had fired. Hunter had information on his laptop about illegal deals with China. Hunter is/was on the board of a multi-billion-dollar company in China. Biden sold us out to China and we are still trying to convict Trump for the Jan 6th setup. Anyone who watched the live videos being posted by people would see that it was a setup. The police left the site. What if the police had left the Supreme Court when Kavanaugh was appointed? Protestors would have ripped that place to shreds, but the guards didn't leave.

Hunter Biden has nothing to do with anything but an attempt by Trump to smear Hunter's father. His being on boards is not a crime nor illegal. I'm happy to agree that Hunter used family name leverage to have the career he had. But evidence of wrongdoing simply isn't actually there.

If you think that, you have missed that entire issue. All of Biden's shady dealings are in Hunter's name. It's all on the laptop. Fox tried to expose it, but the FBI and others came down on them hard. That family is corrupt, I saw it with my own eyes and have reasons to believe Jill isn't a nice person.

Your hate, their hate, means Trump will never get a fair trial. Like you said, even if they have to get him on mail fraud. And they would if they could. Trump went into the presidential office with billions of more dollars than when he came out. Obama on the hand came out with a lot more money than when he went in. He brought a $25 million home, yet presidents don't make that much money unless they are selling the office.

I don't think I said anything hateful about Trump. I don't like or respect him. I don't like or respect Hillary either. Nor Biden, though less so than either Trump or HIllary.

As to the money, Obama published all his financials. You can trace the wealth if you were really interested. Trump never published minimal to no financials so you have no idea how much he may have really lost or gained. But if you want to see how Obama could do it, try

https://www.reviewjournal.com/life/pres ... ite-house/

It sounds hateful. Maybe it is just me.

[SaidNobody]

I also read their arguments very closely and what they were arguing in these courts was very different than what they were saying in public and on the right-wing news programs. We know why they did that.

If it was indeed illegal as you say then there should have been some traction in at least one or some of the courts right on up to the supreme court. Instead it was nothing. They lost everything they put forward. Whether it was illegal or lack of standing they lost over and over again.

This is why we are confused and without satisfaction. We are reasonable people, in spite of what you say. If you have shown we didn't have a case, we would have left quietly. But we were simply denied a hearing. Not that DOJ didn't take 2 years to shred everyone close to Trump looking for dirt, we were simply told it wasn't their problem. But we aren't done with this yet. How did Obama put it? "Civil unrest is when people won't listen."

[stealthbishop]

I also read their arguments very closely and what they were arguing in these courts was very different than what they were saying in public and on the right-wing news programs. We know why they did that.

If it was indeed illegal as you say then there should have been some traction in at least one or some of the courts right on up to the supreme court. Instead it was nothing. They lost everything they put forward. Whether it was illegal or lack of standing they lost over and over again.

This is why we are confused and without satisfaction. We are reasonable people, in spite of what you say. If you have shown we didn't have a case, we would have left quietly. But we were simply denied a hearing. Not that DOJ didn't take 2 years to shred everyone close to Trump looking for dirt, we were simply told it wasn't their problem. But we aren't done with this yet. How did Obama put it? "Civil unrest is when people won't listen."

But it's not just Democrat or left-wing judges though. These are Republicans/Conservatives and even actual Trump appointed judges that are saying there is nothing there. Even the Supreme Court (which no objective observer says is even close to Left wing now)!

So either it was a colossal failure of strategy and competence on the part of Trump's attorneys or there just isn't any merit whatsoever whether it was standing or legality. And like I said, it was pervasive. Not one court and not one state and same with the Supreme Court. It was across the board. I'm sorry you and others felt unheard but Trump had his multiple days in multiple courts. No YouTube mule video is going to make a difference here other than feed the beliefs of people who will never abandon Trump. What did he say again about his followers' support and if he shot someone on 5th Avenue?

[SaidNobody]

But it's not just Democrat or left-wing judges though. These are Republicans/Conservatives and even actual Trump appointed judges that are saying there is nothing there. Even the Supreme Court (which no objective observer says is even close to Left wing now)!

So either it was a colossal failure of strategy and competence on the part of Trump's attorneys or there just isn't any merit whatsoever whether it was standing or legality. And like I said, it was pervasive. Not one court and not one state and same with the Supreme Court. It was across the board. I'm sorry you and others felt unheard but Trump had his multiple days in multiple courts. No YouTube mule video is going to make a difference here other than feed the beliefs of people who will never abandon Trump. What did he say again about his followers' support and if he shot someone on 5th Avenue?

People keep putting this forward like it should solve the problem.

I don't care who the judges were or who appointed them. Maybe they really couldn't hear the case. All I know is that the FBI and DOJ went after Trump for the stupidest stuff you can imagine. They even dug up shit on Trump's dad. They tried to accuse Trump of treason because he did a photo op at the White House.

But when half the nation cried foul not a single court could hear it.

The truth is, no one really wants to undo an election. Even though there was plenty of evidence that major fraud happened, over turning the election would have wreaked the nation. I would rather lose then set a standard of reversing elections. But that doesn't mean this wasn't a major cheat. All Republicans are talking about is election integrity. We know we won. But now that China owns the voting machines, we are doing everything we can feel confident in the election.

The nation is already taking a serious dive. Inflation is out of control, fuel is higher than ever, and it's just getting started. I don't blame people that voted for Biden because it wasn't the majority.

[Cnsl1]

One reason you're hard to believe, Saidnobody, and why it's hard to take you seriously is that among all the stuff you say, there are things probably each of us know are blatantly untrue. For instance, you said previously that AZ had already overturned the election results. That's just completely not true. AZ did not overturn anything. You should know that, but yet you still claim it. That makes me think you're also a liar. You're either a severely misinformed ignoramus, or a liar, OR, you're mistaken on that particular point. Which is it?

You're right about gas and food prices being high. Spot on.