NOM

When I listened to this on the radio this morning, it really struck me that as humans, we are so very emotionally driven, to the point of throwing logic out the window. It made me think back to when I was a TBM and the conversations I have now with TBMs now that I am not one.

http://www.npr.org/2017/03/13/519661419 ... ent-enough

Certain myths are so pervasive that no matter how many experts disprove them, they only seem to grow in popularity.

...we're open to new information – but only if it confirms our existing beliefs. We find ways to ignore facts that challenge our ideals and we weigh all opinions as equally valid, regardless of expertise.

For some of us here that are pretty much out or totally out, but still have TBM family and friends to contend with. I think most of us have experienced the bewilderment of knowing so many of the facts about church history and the truth claims, reading apologetics, looking back on what we used to believe and being astounded. Astounded by how crazy it all looks now and then we try to have conversations with TBMs and it goes nowhere, they walk away more convinced than ever and we shake our heads in disbelief. It can be frustrating. I mean, we can empathize with them as we've been there but it's still so difficult at times.

I think back to when I was still in and struggling, my poor TBM DW, feeling lost and hurt because she felt me slipping out of it and felt helpless. I felt guilty because it's not what she signed up for. What helped was for me to double down on being a good husband and friend to her and more importantly to show her my feelings. It's easy to slip into a cynical attitude when you start learning the truth about the church, perhaps make snide remarks about this or that with the things on the shelf. Or, turn to logic and critical thinking, pushing aside the metaphysical things and emotions that we feel were partially responsible for our being duped by it. But for me, showing my DW the emotional side of my cogdis pain, helped her empathize with me and see that I was sincere in my struggle.

So my point is to have more patience with your TBM family and friends. Perhaps keep the conversation away from the facts and more to the emotional trauma you are or did go through that brought you to where you are today. Perhaps they will be able to empathize better with you instead of just being offended by your knowledge of the facts and truth. Also empathize with them that you know how they feel toward you because you felt that way when you were a TBM and talked to friends or family that was struggling.

Looking forward to your thoughts.

Just read the title. Quick post. As they say in public speaking.

Facts tell, stories sell.

This reminds me of another recent NOM thread, a discussion of an unrelated article that makes a similar case.

I wonder how many of our major life decisions we actually make based on facts and reason. I imagine that in many cases, we initially pursue something just because we like it or it feels right, only then possibly starting to apply reason.

In the context of religion, "faith precedes the miracle" seems to be a a formulation of this idea. It makes sense to me that facts alone wouldn't be enough to push someone into our out of a religion.

I think it's a good point you make that with focus only on intellectual analysis, it's easy to forget that there's more to a religious tradition than simply a checklist of facts to be verified or refuted and then wonder why someone else doesn't come to the same conclusions with the same information. Especially when that information is perceived as an attack.

Wonder what the Vulcan Science Academy would make of the LDS Heartsell™ technique? Five bucks says the Academy would conclude that it is "most illogical".

The world is full of all types of people, from hard-bitten rationalists to fervent believers in the supernatural.

Rubin, your reference and advice are good. I think communicating honestly, and sensitively with our TBM friends and family is a challenging, but achievable goal. Thanks so much.

I liked how you equated emotions and metaphysics.

Ironically, when my shelf broke, it was a relief as well as a trial, because it relieved me from self- doubt.

I'm living in this experiment. Fowler's stages of faith helps me to stop myself from vomiting facts constantly and scaring the living hell out of my relatives. It wasn't the case in my anger stage and damage was done.

My VT thinks gender roles are the most spiffy thing ever. She believes she can topple any feminist argument I have. Even though, I've stated I prefer not to discuss my issues (out of respect for her, not fear for me), this woman continues to bring up gender roles.

Now, I pull my punches. I pull them, a lot. I keep things very general. We haven't gotten anywhere near my issues. I phrase things carefully and kindly. I stick with anecdotes, not facts. This woman always leaves my home in tears.

In short, TBMs will always be TBMs and I say that with love.

RubinHighlander wrote: ↑Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:09 pmSo my point is to have more patience with your TBM family and friends. Perhaps keep the conversation away from the facts and more to the emotional trauma you are or did go through that brought you to where you are today. Perhaps they will be able to empathize better with you instead of just being offended by your knowledge of the facts and truth. Also empathize with them that you know how they feel toward you because you felt that way when you were a TBM and talked to friends or family that was struggling.

Looking forward to your thoughts.

You make a good point and I think it works much better than logic - at least in my experience, though I'm still not sure how I feel about emotional manipulation even if they're using it on me. When I've laid out the facts, they just look at me like a deer in the head lights and then try to dismiss it by saying how they felt the spirit that it's true no matter what. So, I've tried saying something like, "I've studied, pondered and prayed and I felt the spirit strongly that we should not be giving our tithes blindly to anyone, including a church who hides money from its' members..." etc.

Still, I can see how emotional reasoning is POWERFUL for everyone! The most obvious example is falling in love or sex... how many people know there are logical reasons to not be with someone, yet the sexual or passionate drive is just too strong to resist!