NOM

Really interesting article here in the Tribune.

http://www.sltrib.com/home/5371962-155/ ... ood-ban-is

Just another reason of a long list to head for the exit of the church. Very Very sad indeed that all the Racism is still in the cover up mode . If the church leaders really wanted to come clean with this they would clean it up during conference or a special devotional dedicated to all minorities in the church. I remember growing up the call to marry only within your race.

I have often wondered what would have happened if events on October 7 1943 had been different. That was the day that Spencer W. Kimball and Ezra Taft Benson were made apostles. Two vacancies in the quorum had to be filled and these two guys were ordained for October 1943 conference. Kimball was put ahead of Benson in apostolic seniority because he was a couple of years older.

But if Benson was ahead of Kimball for whatever reason, it would have left Ezra Taft Benson as prophet of the LDS church from 1973 up through his death in 1994. I have deep skepticism that the priesthood ban would have been lifted in 1978 as a result. We also can't forget that Harold B. Lee was expected to be prophet for 15 to 20 years but he passed away early. I have strong doubts that Lee would have lifted the ban either.

This might lead an apologist to point out the hand of God in LDS leadership leading up to the 1978 revelation. I lean towards the profound problem of a bunch of old school racists flanking Spencer Kimball among the apostles. David O. McKay should have addressed this problem in the 1950s. I fear that all of this simply points out the good fortune that we didn't have to wait until Gordon Hinckley's tenure to remove the priesthood ban.

Corsair wrote: ↑Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:59 am I have often wondered what would have happened if events on October 7 1943 had been different...

That is surely an interesting alternate history you've come up with. I find the parallels between the church's racism problems and homophobia rather interesting as well. The church was late to adopt a 'civil rights' friendly platform; about 15 - 20 years too late. If that pattern holds, the church will adopt a gay friendly platform in about 2030. The question I think you have to ask yourself there is whether Holland, Uchtdorf or Bednar would be willing to make a change like that. Holland and Uchtdorf will both be pushing 90 in 15 years. Bednar will be about 80.

Corsair wrote: ↑Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:59 am I have often wondered what would have happened if events on October 7 1943 had been different. That was the day that Spencer W. Kimball and Ezra Taft Benson were made apostles. Two vacancies in the quorum had to be filled and these two guys were ordained for October 1943 conference. Kimball was put ahead of Benson in apostolic seniority because he was a couple of years older.

But if Benson was ahead of Kimball for whatever reason, it would have left Ezra Taft Benson as prophet of the LDS church from 1973 up through his death in 1994. I have deep skepticism that the priesthood ban would have been lifted in 1978 as a result. We also can't forget that Harold B. Lee was expected to be prophet for 15 to 20 years but he passed away early. I have strong doubts that Lee would have lifted the ban either.

This might lead an apologist to point out the hand of God in LDS leadership leading up to the 1978 revelation. I lean towards the profound problem of a bunch of old school racists flanking Spencer Kimball among the apostles. David O. McKay should have addressed this problem in the 1950s. I fear that all of this simply points out the good fortune that we didn't have to wait until Gordon Hinckley's tenure to remove the priesthood ban.

I don't have a reference for this but I've heard it a few times: Supposedly SWK's son had a conversation with his dad about the change in 1978. He asked his father about the change and SWK told him that he knew if he didn't make the change that ETB never would.

As awful as 'Miracle of Forgiveness' is, at least SWK had some fore-site.

If one of the apostles was of a different race (just being born outside of Utah does not constitute being a different race) I think that would help many members with lingering unresolved racism. I realize the chance of that happening is pretty much nil, but I think it would be the single most powerful motivator to shake off lingering racism.

Corsair wrote: ↑Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:59 amDavid O. McKay should have addressed this problem in the 1950s.

Had President McKay changed the racial policies in 1948 and also changed the policy of not proselytizing people of African descent, the Church would not most likely have three times the members. The Church would have also received praise for being ahead of the curve, rather than being historically lumped together with the apartheid policies of South Africa.

Corsair wrote: ↑Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:59 am I have often wondered what would have happened if events on October 7 1943 had been different. That was the day that Spencer W. Kimball and Ezra Taft Benson were made apostles. Two vacancies in the quorum had to be filled and these two guys were ordained for October 1943 conference. Kimball was put ahead of Benson in apostolic seniority because he was a couple of years older.

But if Benson was ahead of Kimball for whatever reason, it would have left Ezra Taft Benson as prophet of the LDS church from 1973 up through his death in 1994. I have deep skepticism that the priesthood ban would have been lifted in 1978 as a result. We also can't forget that Harold B. Lee was expected to be prophet for 15 to 20 years but he passed away early. I have strong doubts that Lee would have lifted the ban either.

This might lead an apologist to point out the hand of God in LDS leadership leading up to the 1978 revelation. I lean towards the profound problem of a bunch of old school racists flanking Spencer Kimball among the apostles. David O. McKay should have addressed this problem in the 1950s. I fear that all of this simply points out the good fortune that we didn't have to wait until Gordon Hinckley's tenure to remove the priesthood ban.

I kinda wish we did have to wait for Hinckley to do it, the corporation wouldn't be what it is today.

moksha wrote: ↑Fri Jun 09, 2017 4:24 pm Had President McKay changed the racial policies in 1948 and also changed the policy of not proselytizing people of African descent, the Church would not most likely have three times the members. The Church would have also received praise for being ahead of the curve, rather than being historically lumped together with the apartheid policies of South Africa.

Korihor wrote: ↑Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:05 am I kinda wish we did have to wait for Hinckley to do it, the corporation wouldn't be what it is today.

These are both very important ideas. I really would like to find some good reasons to stay involved with the LDS church, but they have a long, consistent track record of being way behind the curve on human moral development.

The Gospel Topic Essay on Race and the Priesthood sheepishly admits that many early leaders were unrepentant racists. They were "men of their time" as opposed to prophets who possibly should have seen what was coming. Contrast the LDS church with the most prominent competitor arising from Joseph Smith. Community of Christ was formerly the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. They never had any racial restriction on priesthood ordination. The Quakers were being jailed for denouncing slavery before the Civil War. William Wilberforce brought down the slave trade in England almost singlehandedly and his devout religious background was a significant inspiration in this objective.

Meanwhile, in 1949 Heber J. Grant reiterates some of the thinnest authoritarian doctrine against granting the ordinances of salvation to people with darker skin than the Lamanites. Spencer Kimball had to maneuver around Mark E. Peterson and Ezra Taft Benson to get the 1978 revelation in place. I need to see some impressively transcendent revelation coming from leaders of the LDS church before I treat them how they truly wish to be treated. They have blundered into some of their most resilient ideas while entirely fumbling what should have been some of the easiest.

Spicy McHaggis wrote: ↑Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:39 pm

Corsair wrote: ↑Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:59 am I have often wondered what would have happened if events on October 7 1943 had been different. That was the day that Spencer W. Kimball and Ezra Taft Benson were made apostles. Two vacancies in the quorum had to be filled and these two guys were ordained for October 1943 conference. Kimball was put ahead of Benson in apostolic seniority because he was a couple of years older.

But if Benson was ahead of Kimball for whatever reason, it would have left Ezra Taft Benson as prophet of the LDS church from 1973 up through his death in 1994. I have deep skepticism that the priesthood ban would have been lifted in 1978 as a result. We also can't forget that Harold B. Lee was expected to be prophet for 15 to 20 years but he passed away early. I have strong doubts that Lee would have lifted the ban either.

This might lead an apologist to point out the hand of God in LDS leadership leading up to the 1978 revelation. I lean towards the profound problem of a bunch of old school racists flanking Spencer Kimball among the apostles. David O. McKay should have addressed this problem in the 1950s. I fear that all of this simply points out the good fortune that we didn't have to wait until Gordon Hinckley's tenure to remove the priesthood ban.

I don't have a reference for this but I've heard it a few times: Supposedly SWK's son had a conversation with his dad about the change in 1978. He asked his father about the change and SWK told him that he knew if he didn't make the change that ETB never would.

As awful as 'Miracle of Forgiveness' is, at least SWK had some fore-site.

Wow. That is fascinating.

This article about racism was a fatal crack in my shelf.
http://www.feministmormonhousewives.org ... er-future/

BIL is black and about as TBM as they come. His mom is a member too, but is inactive because of the racism she experienced at church. She's never gone into any details about what happened. Maybe I will share this article with her.