NOM

I don't really want to open the can of worms about whether or not the Q15 are true believers or whether they're intentionally perpetrating a fraud, but I would like to see if this line of thought rings true for others.

Personally I believe that GAs are believers to different degrees and they look at things through different colors of lenses. Also, when I listen to conference speakers from Seventies speak, they seem a lot more starry-eyed and truly believing than the apostles and prophets. I am coming to the conclusion that some of them, once they are at the highest tier and have access to more information, really are aware of insurmountable problems with church history, perhaps from documents that may never have made it out of the vault.

My evidence for this is the way they reacted to the Salamander Letter.

First of all, Jerald Tanner was not fooled. The one guy who should have welcomed the Salamander Letter with open arms and a big "I told you so!" sniffed it out as a fraud right away. But the Prophets, Seers and Revelators didn't even question the Salamander Letter, and in fact defended it right up to the point it was proven beyond a doubt to be a fraud. You have to ask yourself why they were so easily taken in. Lack of prophesy and spirit of discernment aside, these guys were highly motivated to condemn the Salamander Letter and had every opportunity to do so, but they didn't. They bought it (literally and figuratively) hook line and sinker, and then tried to hide it.

I have to believe that their reaction when they saw it was, "oh sh*t, not another one!"

Does it strike anyone else that way?

I'm reminded of the David O' McKay missionary story where he sees a monument that reads "What ere thou art, act well thy part." We all act different parts in our lives, as friends, employees, husbands/wives, parents. I acted the TBM part for many years.(from 20-55 years of age) Maybe by the time one is a 60-70 year old general authority, one forgets that one is acting. By the time one is a 75-85 year old general authority, with 10-20 years one forgets everything but the acting the part.

I don't particularly care for this analogy but many years ago I worked for a corporation that had one really nasty middle manager. For whatever reason this manager had an inside track with the big boss and no matter what he did the big Boss always came down on his side and protected him. One day somebody actually had the gumption to tell the big Boss what they thought of Bill (not his real name).
The big boss just smiled and said, "Yeah, Bill's an a**hole, but he's MY a**hole....

When we lived in the southern U.S. I discovered that redneck mothers will defend their delinquent children no matter how bad they had been or how much truth you told them about what they had done, it was never Johnny's fault. Someone else was always to blame.

So I see church leadership as being totally knee-jerk reactors to anything that might even begin to show Joseph in a bad or questionable light. It is an all consuming and unquestioning loyalty. Thus their first response cannot be a search for truth. Truth is irrelevant. The first response must be a defensive measure regardless of how ludicrous it may appear.
They have lost all ability to make an unbiased, non-prejudicial judgment regarding Joseph Smith. He, as the demi-god they have made him into, must be defended at all costs.

ETA:
It would have been great to be a fly on the wall to listen to and see the private reactions of leadership to the letter. Would they have been a little shocked at the contents or as you, Hagoth point out, would they have just assumed it was true and there was a need to hide the thing or possibly even a description from Harris in which he was a little confused or even embellishing which still required hiding from those who might be "weak in the faith".

It strikes me that way, yes. I too see a shift in language between 70's and 12's where the 12 employ more legalese language.
It's just like Joseph Feilding and the first vision account. The "oh crap not another one" moments come around for us fairly often, but I have to think they come around for them too.

The Big 15 really believe the Church is true, but they don't believe the same way the member in the pew believes. For example, the member in the pew thinks they meet with the Savior every week in the temple - the Big 15 know that isn't true, but have constructed massive rationalizations to preserve their belief in the "trueness" of the Church even though they know they have never seen Christ like people think they have. They compartmentalize, they rationalize, they put what they have to on the shelf - but they aren't the naive believers most members are. They find ways to keep believing anyway, but their belief isn't the same as most members.

I'm still disappointed that the Salamander Letter was not real. I think I may have been reading Watership Down and Jonathan Livingstone Seagull at the time and those books along with the Salamander Letter seemed to blend in well with one another adding a new dimension to The Church. I remember being tickled by BYU President Dallin Oaks' letter to the editor in the Salt Lake Tribune telling how he embraced the letter. It seemed akin to Jonathan Seagull diligently practicing his aerial dives. Both Jonathan and Dallin displayed a great deal of faith. Real or not, maybe I can still hold onto it as a symbolic facet of the Church.

moksha wrote: ↑Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:59 am I'm still disappointed that the Salamander Letter was not real

Fortunately we still have Willard Chase's Something Like a Toad Letter:

He again opened the box, and in it saw the book, and attempted to take it out, but was hindered. He saw in the box something like a toad, which soon assumed the appearance of a man, and struck him on the side of his head.

I know toads aren't quite as cute as salamanders but sometimes we have to make due. I think Michael Quinn shares your fondness for the letter, Moksha. He chose to include a chapter about magic salamanders in his World View book even after the fraud was exposed.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Mon Jun 12, 2017 6:45 am I know toads aren't quite as cute as salamanders but sometimes we have to make due. I think Michael Quinn shares your fondness for the letter, Moksha. He chose to include a chapter about magic salamanders in his World View book even after the fraud was exposed.

The White Salamander would have been a wonder mascot for the City Creek Mall. "Stop on by for a pure and delightsome shopping experience."

BTW, Hagoth, we've been missing you.

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:09 pm The Big 15 really believe the Church is true, but they don't believe the same way the member in the pew believes. For example, the member in the pew thinks they meet with the Savior every week in the temple - the Big 15 know that isn't true, but have constructed massive rationalizations to preserve their belief in the "trueness" of the Church even though they know they have never seen Christ like people think they have. They compartmentalize, they rationalize, they put what they have to on the shelf - but they aren't the naive believers most members are. They find ways to keep believing anyway, but their belief isn't the same as most members.

So if I understand you correctly NBI... What you're saying here is that the Big 15 are really good at self-delusion and mental gymnastics? Like, to the point of completely ignoring reality?

We're talking really good. Really, really good!

wtfluff wrote: ↑Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:29 am

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:09 pm The Big 15 really believe the Church is true, but they don't believe the same way the member in the pew believes. For example, the member in the pew thinks they meet with the Savior every week in the temple - the Big 15 know that isn't true, but have constructed massive rationalizations to preserve their belief in the "trueness" of the Church even though they know they have never seen Christ like people think they have. They compartmentalize, they rationalize, they put what they have to on the shelf - but they aren't the naive believers most members are. They find ways to keep believing anyway, but their belief isn't the same as most members.

So if I understand you correctly NBI... What you're saying here is that the Big 15 are really good at self-delusion and mental gymnastics? Like, to the point of completely ignoring reality?

We're talking really good. Really, really good!

Yeah, I think so. Don't get me wrong, I still think they are dishonest frauds and cheats, but I think what inspires their fraudulence and cheatery is a core belief that in spite of everything the Church is somehow true. Again, not true in the way they let members think it is, but true enough to compromise their integrity for. They lie for the Lord because they really think that is what the Lord wants.

I think the way you put it is true - they are really, really, really good at self-delusion and mental gymnastics. As an example, think of President Hinckley's Larry King interview where when asked point blank about receiving revelation he talked about "impressions". President Hinckley knew he had never talked with God face to face, but he convinced himself that "impressions" were the revelation he needed to guide the Church. Was he deceptive in letting members think there was more to it than that? Absolutely, I think he was a real charlatan. But did he still believe those impressions were revelations helping him lead God's true Church? Yeah, I think he did what he had to do to preserve that belief. Did he lie to the membership? Absolutely, on several occasions, he told the Thomas Marsh milk strippings story when he knew the real story on that, he hid Joseph Smith's treasure hunting and sexual predation as much as he could, he was all kinds of dishonest with the members, and I believe he will have to answer for that. But I think he did it because he had himself convinced the Church was true and anything done to protect it was justified.

When Elder Anderson tells us to "give Joseph a break", he does so knowing full well all the horrible stuff Joseph did. He just thinks that the Church is true so his deception is justified.

They intentionally deceive us, but I don't think that means they don't believe in the truth of the Church.

wtfluff wrote: ↑Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:29 am

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:09 pm The Big 15 really believe the Church is true, but they don't believe the same way the member in the pew believes. For example, the member in the pew thinks they meet with the Savior every week in the temple - the Big 15 know that isn't true, but have constructed massive rationalizations to preserve their belief in the "trueness" of the Church even though they know they have never seen Christ like people think they have. They compartmentalize, they rationalize, they put what they have to on the shelf - but they aren't the naive believers most members are. They find ways to keep believing anyway, but their belief isn't the same as most members.

So if I understand you correctly NBI... What you're saying here is that the Big 15 are really good at self-delusion and mental gymnastics? Like, to the point of completely ignoring reality?

We're talking really good. Really, really good!

Reminds me of that Carly Simon song: "Nobody does it better".

The question of "Do they believe' comes up from time to time.
When we hear a Seventy share testimony, they always "know beyond a shadow of a doubt that TSM is a true prophet, that the Lord guides the church", etc. The seem to have their emphatic voice to perfection so there is no doubt that they have a pure knowledge.
When you hear one of the top 15 share their testimony, it never touches on being prophets, seers or revelators. At most they claim the lord leads the church.
I think most of the top 15 believe but they also know that the church isn't what it claims to be and that they are misleading members about what the church really is. Perhaps their belief is more of a hope than a sincere belief.

I think the top 15 hope they aren't wrong more than they actually believe it all true. How the scams, such as the Salamander letter or BoA papyrus come up and they continue to claim it's all true is beyond me. Which is why I think they've probably evolved from belief to hope.

I think it tells us they were willing to believe he made some of the same kinds of claims that Old Testament prophets made. The first thing I thought when I heard about the Salamander letter was something along the lines of "And this is different than the weird claims in the Bible because...?"

A white salamander transforming into a divine being is no stranger than the voice of god emanating from a burning bush or a miracle of a gourd floating above someone to shade them from the sun. So if the Salamander Letter is authentic, my first thought is that it makes no difference as far as what someone is likely to accept if they're a believer.

That said, I agree it shows a complete lack of discernment on the part of what are supposed to be inspired, divinely chosen leaders. I can understand how it was Hoffman got greedy. The church leadership was a cash cow that seemed limitless as long as he applied his expertise at forgery, but he probably got careless as it seemed all too easy.

Mad Jax wrote: ↑Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:31 pmThat said, I agree it shows a complete lack of discernment on the part of what are supposed to be inspired, divinely chosen leaders.

The other disappointing thing for me, besides the fact that they were duped, is that they only came to the defense of the letter AFTER Hoffman started leaking photocopies of it. Otherwise they did their best to sweep it under the rug, which is another hint that there might be other potentially damaging documents that are being kept under wraps.

Regarding the idea of the 70 being true believers and the 15 caught up in their own web - I liken it unto politics.

Look at Jeff Sessions on the stand this week and the double speak, denying and weasel language he used - Spoken like a true politician. Look how the Q15 speak when pressed into a corner on a sticky subject.

Just like any good politician - the Q15 are excellent word fudgers. And just like most politicians - the next scandal is just around the corner so their immediate reaction is to deny and cover up.

Joseph Smith said if you have the spirit you cannot be deceived.

(a) Joseph Smith was wrong and therefore lacked credibility

or

(b) The Brethren did not have the spirit and therefore lacked credibility

Checkmate