NOM

I have found the Quinn book about the magical world view quite fascinating but it is very heavy reading. It is sometimes hard to pick out the vital points amongst the abundance of detail. My husband enjoys readings about the actual history of the church but would find this one way too long. Does anyone know of a summarized version without the long explanations about every single point?

I found the footnotes overwhelming! That book is heavy heavy reading...no doubt about that.

The take-away I got was JS was into treasure digging; he did weird things with it like killing and bleeding animals; he followed the horoscopes and was nuts into dates and things; he had a magic dagger (and that is REALLY creepy--); he had a magic talisman.

Quinn said something in the book that really caught my attention: he said that saying JS was uneducated (to imply unread and unlearned) was the actual myth. The kid read, had a vivid imagination, and later in life showed his ability to grasp and learn things. This really caught my attention...

I was looking at buying this book on Amazon. The reviews were good, but sounds like a slow, academic read. I too want to understand all of the magic in JS mind.

LostGirl wrote: ↑Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:11 pm Does anyone know of a summarized version without the long explanations about every single point?

All of his subsequent editions have added MORE text and notes to refute his critics, but I don't know of a version that has less. I have heard that Palmer's book (Insider's View) has a lot of this information and is an easier read, but I have not read it myself. I am almost finished with the book, and although a long and often tedious read, I found it essential to really understanding JS's motives, and really how all of this started.

Rob4Hope wrote: ↑Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:49 pm Quinn said something in the book that really caught my attention: he said that saying JS was uneducated (to imply unread and unlearned) was the actual myth. The kid read, had a vivid imagination, and later in life showed his ability to grasp and learn things. This really caught my attention...

Yep, this ^^ I think of JS sort of like a 19th century Steve Jobs (not to impugn Steve Jobs). Where you have a person without a lot of formal education who takes the ideas of other people and brilliantly combines them into this whole other thing. Except instead of being interested in computers and coming up with something useful and revolutionary, JS was interested in the melding of religion and magic and came up with something harmful and revolutionary.

Has he read Rough Stone Rolling? If that is too much, you might try Bushman's

Joseph Smith and the Beginnings of Mormonism

. It talks about the treasure digging and dowsing, although from a more faithful perspective than Quinn gives it.

LostGirl wrote: ↑Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:11 pm Does anyone know of a summarized version without the long explanations about every single point?

I will try to give this magical world view the requested summarization:

Salagadoola mechicka boola
Bibbidi-bobbidi-boo
Put them together and what have you got
Bibbidi-bobbidi-Bibbidi-bobbidi
Bibbidi-bobbidi trust us, we've
Got the keys to the Kingdom boo!

Hope that helps.

Sometimes angry church leaders have performed the ritual of desecration known as "shaking the dust from their boots". This is powerful stuff that can destroy a limited geographic area and call in a plague of crickets. Brief summarization:

You put your right foot in,
You put your right foot out,
You put your right foot in,
And you shake it all about,

You say your thee and thou
and you turn yourself around
That what it's all about.

You put your left foot in,
You put your left foot out,
You put your left foot in,
And you shake it all about,

You say your thee and thou
and you turn yourself around
Suffer now thy insolent gentiles!

The whole idea of "binding the Lord", and "holiness to the Lord",...and other things came right from the occult. The whole treasure digging, the killing of the animal and bleeding it around the "magic circle"...this is magic, pure and simple And the church downplays it,...to the extent of it not being in the narrative at all. I wasn't aware of this stuff until I was 40+...and I was a member my whole life!

I would recommend you get the book and you plow through it.

I agree that JS was kindof like a Steve Jobs of the 19th century. The church uses smoke and mirrors to inflate the credibility of "revelation" being the source of JS writings--like saying "how could an uneducated boy, with only a 3rd grade education, write such a masterpiece" <<fill in whoever said this like a gazzillion times>>...

Quinn pointed out that both his parents were school teachers (I think this was in this book), that JS knew how to read (duh!...how was he reading the bible if he was illiterate?), and that these people SHARED BOOKS LIKE CRAZY!

I recommend you still get the book and plow through it. Visit the footnote section only as you need, cuz over half of the book is made up of footnoted bibliographical entries. I will also say this: Quinn is no lightweight with research. My masters thesis had about 80 references, and most were for specific one-off purposes. It took me a LONG TIME to slam through that. QUINN HAS HUNDREDS of references for EVERY CHAPTER!

Just plow through it....

I have started this book and have ground to a slow halt trying to stay focused. Probably better as reference material than a read through. So far my take away is that pretty much everybody in that era had magical views.

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote: ↑Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:34 am So far my take away is that pretty much everybody in that era had magical views.

What I have really gotten from the book is that most of the rural farmers had sort of this weird blend of occult and christian beliefs. Quinn said that something along the lines of only 15% of the rural people belonged to an actual church, but were very serious about their christian/occult beliefs. The great "religious awakening" and a lot that we hear in church history about how other churches were denying that there was "continuing revelation" and said there were no longer visions and such was more of an effort by the more "respectable" people that belonged to organized churches to reign in these occult beliefs and get these rural farmers into an organized and respectable religion.

2bizE wrote: ↑Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:09 pm I was looking at buying this book on Amazon. The reviews were good, but sounds like a slow, academic read. I too want to understand all of the magic in JS mind.

Yep, very slow, academic read, but I have found it essential to my understanding of JS's mindset and the coming forth of the church.

I had to know if he was an inspired prophet or, as Sam Harris puts it, a "libidinous conman". I had to put in the time to try to come up with the truth. The answer I have come up with so far: it's complicated. I think you have a guy that is fascinated with the occult and religion, who makes up stories, believes in magic, thinks made up stories and just random things that happen in life and nature are signs from god, riffs off of things his christian/occult friends come up with; throw in some dowsing rods and seer stones, a treasure story/hoax, sees a salamander in the forest and thinks it's a sign of an angel, hits a rock with a shovel and thinks it's a treasure box that disappears into the earth, has to deliver on made up claims and makes up other stuff, starts to believe made up stuff.... and presto! - you have a religion. A lot more to it, but like Rob4Hope says, "Just plow through it!" It was worth it.

My hold up with Quinn is the white salamander situation which was proven false later. I know my TBM associated will give it zero credibility based on the Hoffman letter being proven a forgery. Thoughts?

Thoughtful wrote: ↑Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:34 pm My hold up with Quinn is the white salamander situation which was proven false later. I know my TBM associated will give it zero credibility based on the Hoffman letter being proven a forgery. Thoughts?

My edition (1998) didn't use the Salamander letter as a direct reference that I remember, and the accounts of JS getting the plates differed from it a bit. I read somewhere that Quinn and a couple of others at the time (Arrington years) were making some noise about the magic world view and that Hofmann got the idea for the Salamander letter from that. I believe Quinn's book originally came out in 1987, and the forgery was discovered in 1984 or 1985 I think??

The letter itself is similar but not exactly like Quinn's account in the '98 edition (that I remember, it's been a while since I read that part.) Quinn quoted one person as saying it was a toad in the box (instead of a salamander) that morphed into Moroni. He spent some time talking about how the angel required Alvin to be there, who then died shortly after, and so the angel said he could have his wife there instead if he were to marry. He used this to get some of the other treasure seekers to convince Emma to marry him. ("we can't get the treasure unless you marry me!" sort of a proto-"the angel will kill me unless you marry me!")

I'm not well read on the Hofmann forgeries, but the little I have read suggested he got the idea from then current stuff that was coming out about JS's occult practices. I guess that's why it was believed to be real- it meshed with what these Arrington-era historians were saying. In any case, there is a lot more in the book than what is talked about in the letter with TONS of sources.

Interesting point Thoughtful, I'd love to hear from someone about this who is more familiar with the Hofmann stuff.

I actually just started reading this book and find it fascinating as well! It sheds so much light on the rise of the church. There are just so many parallels to practices that survive today in the church. It should be required reading. I find Quinn to be very unbiased as he lets the reader into the thought process behind his conclusions (this is why he is so long winded). I read it by skipping all the paragraphs that don't interest me when he goes on tangents.

Fun facts so far 60 pages in -
- JS had 3 seer stones, first one found in 1819 by looking in Sally Chase's stone
- There are reports of JS senior as well as Lucy Mack using seer stones
- JS's great grandfather (and great uncle?) were involved in accusing 'witches' in the Salem witch trials that were subsequently killed
- JS sanctioned Oliver's "gift of working with the rod" in D&C 6. Many people used these Y shaped hazel sticks to point to buried treasure as well as communicate directly with God (a stick movement meant 'yes' and no movement meant 'no').
- Quote from Hugh Nibley before the 1826 court record of JS being tried as a "disorderly person" for glass-looking was accepted - "[It] is the most devasting blow to smith ever delivered". I'm sure he would take that back now that everyone acknolwedges it as legitimate.

What makes this more interesting to me is the fact that Quinn still believes in actual Gold plates that JS translated into the BoM (heard him say this in an interview). Quinn must believe in folk magic, because I see no other way to justify this belief. How else can we interpret the years of failed treasure seeking since there are no accounts of any successful finds? The treasure always slipped away further into the earth just before they could get to it. To believe in Mormonism you must believe in folk magic!

An insider's view doesn't get too much into the folk magic culture, but it discusses the stones and rods as used by JS and Oliver. It is a much easier and shorter read. Here are a couple podcasts that get into some of the folk magic stuff if that is easier for your husband.

http://www.mormonstories.org/richard-bu ... e-digging/
http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/ ... vins-hand/

didyoumythme wrote: ↑Sun Jul 16, 2017 5:25 pm
What makes this more interesting to me is the fact that Quinn still believes in actual Gold plates that JS translated into the BoM (heard him say this in an interview). Quinn must believe in folk magic, because I see no other way to justify this belief. How else can we interpret the years of failed treasure seeking since there are no accounts of any successful finds? The treasure always slipped away further into the earth just before they could get to it. To believe in Mormonism you must believe in folk magic!

This also is amazing to me.

Quinn's work is so heavily documented, it speaks for itself, but how can someone like Quinn believe the BofM is a real translation when there is so much evidence that discounts it?....no swords, not a single archeological site found, anachronisms throughout the book, historical absurdities like the barge fable, etc....

Six Major Magical Skills

Alteration - Binding stuff on earth to be bound in heaven
Conjuration - Infusing eight-year-olds with the Holy Ghost
Destruction - The shaking dust from your boots ritual of desecration
Illusion - Prophesying, Seeing and Revelating by regular members or gentiles
Restoration - Blessings of healing
Enchanting - Consecrating olive oil

Addendum to above - Alchemy is not to be talked about on unofficial message board threads!!!

An insider's view doesn't get too much into the folk magic culture, but it discusses the stones and rods as used by JS and Oliver. It is a much easier and shorter read. Here are a couple podcasts that get into some of the folk magic stuff if that is easier for your husband.

http://www.mormonstories.org/richard-bu ... e-digging/
http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/ ... vins-hand/

Thanks didyoumythme. Will take a look at those.

I have made it through the whole quinn book. I am glad to have read it. His arguments are compelling.

I wish that this information was more accessible. While there seems to be much written about some problematic topics, this particular topic does not appear to have received a great deal of attention. Is it because it is too complex to be easily explained? I know after finishing the book I find it difficult to come up with a brief explanation that covers all pertinent points.

I think the thing that disturbed me the most was not the fact that he was a treasure hunter or that he believed in magic, but that he used the same method to find treasure as he did to translate the plates.

There were many other fascinating points including an occult perspective on the moroni visits and an alternate view of his courtship and marriage to Emma.

It will take me quite some time to think through what I have read and consider how it fits with other perspectives.

LostGirl wrote: ↑Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:26 am I know after finishing the book I find it difficult to come up with a brief explanation that covers all pertinent points.

Yup, every time I've tried to discuss it (including this thread) I just start throwing out stuff and I really don't make a lot of sense. It's so much and so different than what the church teaches that it's hard to articulate in a conversation the ins and outs of JS's magical world view.