NOM

In SM yesterday we got the expected "we are so lucky to have prophets" one would expect the week before conference. It was hard to sit through, but my phone pulled me through. One comment cut through my attempts to ignore the talks. The speaker said, "We are blessed to have prophets speak to us next week, and the Lord has said that the prophet won't lead us astray." And my head exploded with no, that was the prophet who said the prophet won't lead you astray, not the Lord, unless I missed something.

The conflict of interest there is so obvious, but somehow I totally missed it for years, and the TBMs in my life totally miss it still.

Actually, it's worse than that as I recall. I don't think the prophet has ever said that.

Ezra Taft Benson made that statement in "Fourteen Fundamentals for Following the Prophet". However, he wasn't the prophet when he made that statement. He was an apostle at the time and I believe he was president of the 12 at that time. It's true that Mormons sustain the 12 as prophets, seers, and revelators, but not as The Prophet. From there it morphed into accepted, if not official, doctrine.

The Catholics at least have the concept of "ex cathedra", by which the Pope differentiates his regular everyday statements from those bearing the full weight of his office. Mormons lack that distinction so that anything said by a sufficiently high leader at any point can end up quoted and accepted as full doctrine. However, when it falls out of favor, it is discarded -- I don't know that we teach that.

I am trying to imagine how I could ask a faithful believer something like, "Exactly what has been actual or practical advantage of having a prophet?" I really want to know about how a prophet has warned people away from hurricanes, tornadoes, tsunamis, war zones, abductions, serial killers, or some other event. And I really want a case where a dated, specific bit of prophetic counsel allowed avoiding significant loss of life or property. Why don't prophets warn about that?

I am confident that the indignant believer will go on about righteousness and avoiding spiritual death or some such excuse. I'm not sure how to express these questions without it sounding like a passive aggressive insult.

Jeffret wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:54 pm Actually, it's worse than that as I recall. I don't think the prophet has ever said that.

From Official Declaration 1 in the D&C:

The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty. (Sixty-first Semiannual General Conference of the Church, Monday, October 6, 1890, Salt Lake City, Utah. Reported in Deseret Evening News, October 11, 1890, p. 2.)

Unless I'm getting my dates mixed up, Woodruff would have been president of the church in October 1890.

Good point. !'d forgotten about that one.

Dravin wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:13 pm

Jeffret wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:54 pm Actually, it's worse than that as I recall. I don't think the prophet has ever said that.

From Official Declaration 1 in the D&C:

The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty. (Sixty-first Semiannual General Conference of the Church, Monday, October 6, 1890, Salt Lake City, Utah. Reported in Deseret Evening News, October 11, 1890, p. 2.)

Unless I'm getting my dates mixed up, Woodruff would have been president of the church in October 1890.

Said the man who married 15 year old girls, had at least 9 wives and went into hiding to keep them and avoid a federal warrant.

Corsair wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:57 pm I am trying to imagine how I could ask a faithful believer something like, "Exactly what has been actual or practical advantage of having a prophet?" I really want to know about how a prophet has warned people away from hurricanes, tornadoes, tsunamis, war zones, abductions, serial killers, or some other event. And I really want a case where a dated, specific bit of prophetic counsel allowed avoiding significant loss of life or property. Why don't prophets warn about that?

I am confident that the indignant believer will go on about righteousness and avoiding spiritual death or some such excuse. I'm not sure how to express these questions without it sounding like a passive aggressive insult.

The sole purpose of a prophet at the head of the modern church is so we can remind ourselves that we are special and superior because we have a prophet at the head of the church.

As long as the prophets don't prophesy they can't take any blame for getting it wrong. Much easier to say " l knew that was going to happen" after the fact.

at least in BOM times prophets could curse a guy and strike him deaf and/or dumb. Parley Pratt tried that with Leroy Sutherland back in 1838, and it didn't even work.

crossmyheart wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:40 am
Said the man who married 15 year old girls, had at least 9 wives and went into hiding to keep them and avoid a federal warrant.

I don't find him particularly credible these days either, but it is a sentiment on record as coming out of the mouth of a president of the church. Personally what gets me is just how self-serving the statement is. "Oh, I made a radical change you aren't comfortable with? Trust me, it would be impossible for me to steer the church wrong. Stay in the boat." It's also rather circular. We 'know' when he says he can't lead the church astray that we can trust him because he said he can't lead the church astray.

"1-2-3, Let's Go Shopping!"

I'd to bear my testimonkey that I'm so eternally grateful for latter-day prophets!.... to lead us, guide us, and help us know the way.... to City Creek Center shopping mall. What would we do without them? Just think, now I can put in my mission papers with confidence - knowing the Lord and his servants in the Q12/15 are looking out for me. I can head off to Mr. Mac for the approved missionary attire, Tumi for my luggage, and then to Porsche Design to accessorize with a sweeeet pair of sunglasses and a watch! And if that doesn't work out for the man-bling, I can fall back to Michael Kors. Such tender mercies the Lord provides!!! I say these things in the name of modern-day revelation, AyyyyMen and where the women know their place.

And is there any official statement that says it's okay for current prophets/seers to call out the old ones that they made mistakes and did not have further light and knowledge?

Hagoth wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:17 am

Corsair wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:57 pm I am trying to imagine how I could ask a faithful believer something like, "Exactly what has been actual or practical advantage of having a prophet?" I really want to know about how a prophet has warned people away from hurricanes, tornadoes, tsunamis, war zones, abductions, serial killers, or some other event. And I really want a case where a dated, specific bit of prophetic counsel allowed avoiding significant loss of life or property. Why don't prophets warn about that?

I am confident that the indignant believer will go on about righteousness and avoiding spiritual death or some such excuse. I'm not sure how to express these questions without it sounding like a passive aggressive insult.

The sole purpose of a prophet at the head of the modern church is so we can remind ourselves that we are special and superior because we have a prophet at the head of the church.

As long as the prophets don't prophesy they can't take any blame for getting it wrong. Much easier to say " l knew that was going to happen" after the fact.

That's an interesting comment. Being able to say your church has a living prophet is the main benefit of having a living prophet. It's place in the "The Church is True" narrative is the most important thing the prophet does.

Though they do some other stuff like give inspiring speeches, and release policies, and scheme against what they perceive as the evils of the world. And of course accept people's hard earned money.

Dravin wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:13 pm

Jeffret wrote: ↑Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:54 pm Actually, it's worse than that as I recall. I don't think the prophet has ever said that.

From Official Declaration 1 in the D&C:

The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty. (Sixty-first Semiannual General Conference of the Church, Monday, October 6, 1890, Salt Lake City, Utah. Reported in Deseret Evening News, October 11, 1890, p. 2.)

Unless I'm getting my dates mixed up, Woodruff would have been president of the church in October 1890.

Of course Woodruff said this just as everyone was thinking he had led the church astray by stopping polygamy. The timing seems a little suspect to me...

oliblish wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:31 pm Of course Woodruff said this just as everyone was thinking he had led the church astray by stopping polygamy. The timing seems a little suspect to me...

This!!!!

The two previous prophets before him had said over the pulpit that you cannot reach exaltation without practicing the New and Everlasting Covenant (code for polygamy). Then he comes along and say "well, never mind". You can understand the turmoil! So then he drops the gem that he can't lead them astray.

Linked wrote: ↑Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:02 pmThough they do some other stuff like give inspiring speeches, and release policies, and scheme against what they perceive as the evils of the world. And of course accept people's hard earned money.

Right, all of which can be done just as well by a middle-management PR guy (or pretty much any random nutcase off the street) with no claims of special powers.

The new home teachers came round to give a message, two nice guys that we like. I'm pretty sure leadership are hopeful I will respond better (i.e., smarten up!) to these two, then my previous home teacher, who we really liked because he DIDN'T give me a hard time.

In any event, the lesson was on why we need prophets. So they asked me, "Bro. M, why do we need prophets?" "That's a good question," I responded. And just stopped there. And we all looked at each other for a while. I then smiled and said, "I'm just trying to behave, that's all."

And then we got into the difference when they're speaking as men, and prophets. I said, "now, how do you know when they are just speaking as men, and as a prophet?" One of them said, "it just doesn't matter. We just need to have faith that they are always on the ball." That's when I knew, not much point in talking further. Just listened and was polite. Once you understand they REGULARLY just speak as men and as a product of their times, and will be repudiated at a later time by a future prophet, seer and revelator, why listen to what they say now?