NOM

Considering all the ways different prophets/shamen/holy men have exited mortality, Joseph Smith's last few days don't seem to imitate Jesus, Moses, the three Nephites, Elijah, or other prophets. Perhaps his passing could be compared to some prophets_ (John the Baptist, Paul?) What meaning do to you find in the way Joseph Smith's martyrdom happened? How do you think most LDS view it?

deacon blues wrote: ↑Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:08 am Considering all the ways different prophets/shamen/holy men have exited mortality, Joseph Smith's last few days don't seem to imitate Jesus, Moses, the three Nephites, Elijah, or other prophets. Perhaps his passing could be compared to some prophets_ (John the Baptist, Paul?) What meaning do to you find in the way Joseph Smith's martyrdom happened? How do you think most LDS view it?

I have a hard time using the word martyrdom for JS's death. If we look at other martyrs in history we usually see someone taken out without much resistance. In Joseph's case he was armed and fought back with weapons of destruction.

The church likes to compare Josephs death to prophets of old but it seems to ring false.

When Jesus' accusers came to take him, and one of his followers cut off an ear, he healed it. No fighting back; which is my mental image of how martyr hood is achieved.

I think Joseph really thought he would come away unscathed again like he had so many times before.

No Tof wrote: ↑Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:23 amI have a hard time using the word martyrdom for JS's death.

I have a hard time using the word meaning for Joseph's death. His shenanigans caught up with him and he paid the ultimate price, and dragged his brother along with him. I wish he hadn't died. I think his increasingly bizarre behavior would have caused eventual disillusionment of his followers and a slow burnout of his organization, as is often the case.

Have to agree with Hagoth and No tof here. I think while Joseph's murder was unfortunate, he was definitely not martyr material.

Most TBMS just regurgitate the same pablum they've been fed by the church with very little research into the actual charges against Joseph and why so many had in some cases good reason to see him jailed.

He was a huge "mess maker" and then he seldom wanted to stick around to help clean up. Instead he would just run away. He pretty much played the game until he finally won the prize.

I'm veering off here, but if the "dispensation of the fullness of times" includes the restoration of all things, shouldn't somebody in this dispensation get translated like Elijah or Alma did? Or John or the three Nephites? I guess it's kind of odd to ask, but, considering that there have been numerous patriarchal blessings since the time of Joseph Smith Sr. that promised the recipient that they would live to see "the Lord come in his glory" (example Wilford Woodruff "thou shalt remain on the earth to behold thy Savior Come in the Clouds of Heaven") shouldn't we expect such a happening?

deacon blues wrote: ↑Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:08 amWhat meaning do to you find in the way Joseph Smith's martyrdom happened? How do you think most LDS view it?

As others have said: No meaning for me in his death. He was murdered by a gang of vigilantes, and as others mentioned, he went down with guns blazing, and crying out the Freemason Distress Call.

Perhaps there is "meaning" in his death in that a few million folks do view him as a martyr, but as mentioned, most of them don't know any of the historical facts about his Murder.

I'm also with Hagoth in that It's highly likely that if Joseph hadn't been murdered, his movement likely would have imploded. I might not exist if that had happened, but honestly, I'm OK with that.

I actually admire that he made his killers taste lead for their attack. I'm piecing together the truth of it between the church's facts and the facts told by other witnesses, but the undeniable thing seems to be that a group of people thought to be unarmed were swarmed by cowards who intended to kill helpless people. If I'm wrong about that fact, I'm open to being corrected (and if so, my excuse is the church confusing the truth.) But I'm going to go on the premise that at least that part is right. Wikipedia, at least, supports it.

No matter what I think of him, he was absolutely justified in putting a lead slug into three of his attackers. All these other martyrs went out like a b*tch. Joseph went out like a f*cking ronin.

I think the same thing in regards to how he went out. I’d hope I was fighting back with everything I had and take some people with me. Self-defense is self-defense.

That doesn’t make him a martyr though. I think it rather discredits the martyr label.

Mad Jax wrote:I actually admire that he made his killers taste lead for their attack. I'm piecing together the truth of it between the church's facts and the facts told by other witnesses, but the undeniable thing seems to be that a group of people thought to be unarmed were swarmed by cowards who intended to kill helpless people. If I'm wrong about that fact, I'm open to being corrected (and if so, my excuse is the church confusing the truth.) But I'm going to go on the premise that at least that part is right. Wikipedia, at least, supports it.

No matter what I think of him, he was absolutely justified in putting a lead slug into three of his attackers. All these other martyrs went out like a b*tch. Joseph went out like a f*cking ronin.

This!

Imagine if instead of the church covering up Joseph's acts of defense, they actually touted it. "Look everyone, he died defending his friends from evil doers, greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends".