How many smoking guns do you need?

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Hagoth
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Re: How many smoking guns do you need?

Post by Hagoth » Wed May 16, 2018 11:30 am

jfro18 wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 11:05 am
7. This one is somewhat all-encompassing, but I would phrase it as *convenience* - let me explain
7a. When Hiram Page declared revelation from a seer stone, Joseph Smith immediately got a "revelation" that it was from the devil
7b. When Joseph Smith was caught sleeping around on Emma, he got a "revelation" that polygamy was totes OK now and Emma would be destroyed if she dared to get in the way
7c. When Joseph Smith needed to push Martin Harris for more money to print the BoM, he magically received a "revelation" from God to tell Martin Harris to sell whatever he needed to sell, but to get that money to him or else.
7d. When the 116 pages were lost, God told Joseph that he had always planned for this and that there was a plan B of another set of plates that had basically the same thing that covered the exact timeframe he had just translated.
7e. When they couldn't sell the copyright to Canada, JS conveniently discovered that some revelations are from God and some from man. Amazing.
7f. Joseph Smith using a rock in a hat for "convenience" after God commanded these plates along with the urim/thummim be passed down from generation to generation for the exact friggin purpose of translating the plates. HOW DOES THAT NOT RING MORE ALARM BELLS?!

I'm working on a priesthood thing that you've seen in the other thread, but my plan is to do a write-up of all the convenient things that God revealed that benefited JS specifically whenever JS needed to be bailed out or needed to pressure others. It is insane.
Yeah, these are excellent. Together they present a pretty strong pattern, don't they? An addendum to 7f would be that, although Joseph claimed to have magical spectacles on an ancient breastplate none of the witnesses of the translation process ever actually saw them, they just saw the hat-rock. Because God would kill Joseph if they did. :roll:
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

jfro18
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Re: How many smoking guns do you need?

Post by jfro18 » Wed May 16, 2018 11:54 am

Hagoth wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 11:30 am
Yeah, these are excellent. Together they present a pretty strong pattern, don't they? An addendum to 7f would be that, although Joseph claimed to have magical spectacles on an ancient breastplate none of the witnesses of the translation process ever actually saw them, they just saw the hat-rock. Because God would kill Joseph if they did. :roll:
Or how JS made members pay for him to travel by land because he was afraid of being on the water...

When you take a step back and look at how God was silent on so many important things, yet was there to cover up for Joseph at every step... there is no other conclusion you can come to besides JS making it up as he went along.

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Just This Guy
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Re: How many smoking guns do you need?

Post by Just This Guy » Wed May 16, 2018 1:36 pm

The problem is that some people could be standing in the middle of the OK corral at 3:01 PM on Oct 26 1881, and not see a single smoking gun because they don't want to open their eyes.
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

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Palerider
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Re: How many smoking guns do you need?

Post by Palerider » Wed May 16, 2018 6:56 pm

jfro18 wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 11:15 am


I wish I had thought that way at the time, although to be honest I don't think people leaving the church is what will make her feel safer about investigating. I have no idea what will, but hopefully at some point she will be open to hearing these things... probably not, but I have to hope. :)

Sometime you might try asking her what she thinks the Savior meant when He said, "Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free."

And then say, "I don't want to argue this point I just want you to think about if it's true that the church isn't what it claims to be, how can that knowledge be harmful to us?"

Aren't we better of knowing the truth?
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

Arcturus
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Re: How many smoking guns do you need?

Post by Arcturus » Thu May 17, 2018 8:56 am

Hagoth wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 4:50 pm

1- I think the Book of Abraham is a smoking gun, as does everyone who has ever looked into it who didn't already have a testimony of the church. He claimed to have actually, literally translated a document written by Abraham "in his own hand." It fails on every possible test, and it leaves no room to suggest that "translation" doesn't mean translation.
Hagoth - as you pointed out in your google doc commentary for the church's BofA commentary you point out that Joseph claimed to know many languages, including Egyptian, and is recorded as spouting off purported Egyptian phrases but is really gibberish. This is huge to me because the church loves to tout how "unlearned" he was and that he was translating through heavenly aide. But what you point out is that Joseph was "translating" through his direct knowledge of the Egyptian language and the need for seership was gone due to his ability. This is a big smoking gun to me.

Arcturus
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Re: How many smoking guns do you need?

Post by Arcturus » Thu May 17, 2018 10:07 am

I'll also suggest the blood oaths that used to be part of the temple. For anyone who admires Jesus, both religiously and philosophically, I can't see any sound argument for the idea that the blood oaths came from Jesus. In my mind, the blood oath practice is a substantive departure from pure Christianity. To me, they are a huge sign of the lack of a connection between God and mormon prophets.

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Rob4Hope
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Re: How many smoking guns do you need?

Post by Rob4Hope » Thu May 17, 2018 8:07 pm

I think it comes down to how independent a person wants to be, and measuring the cost. The history is out there. When people look at that stuff, they can discount it immediately and just put it out of their mind because "They believe, and that is all there is to it". Or they can wonder and see problems, while discounting them. Or they can ask questions and when the answers are NOT forthcoming, decide against it.

But, in each case, there is a cost.

Its that cost that separates people--their willingness or unwillingness to pay. For me, for example, I lost just about everything. I live in heartland SLC. I know there are others in Utah County, for example, that can't leave, because they would loose their jobs as well as family.

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