The Lucy Code

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Hagoth
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The Lucy Code

Post by Hagoth » Wed May 16, 2018 11:19 am

Yobisbo mentioned this Youtube presentation in another thread. I watched it and thought it was interesting enough to be broken out into a separate topic.

Have you watched it? What do you think? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wf3MluItWQE

There is some very interesting and compelling information here, along with a lot of loose connections and possible coincidences, but definately worth thinking about. Personally, I think Trebas makes Joseph's contribution too narrow, but I find it both fascinating and likely that other members of the Smith family could have taken significan roles in developing the Book of Mormon, especially considering the degree to which they worked collectively in their previous treasure digging schemes.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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oliver_denom
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Re: The Lucy Code

Post by oliver_denom » Wed May 16, 2018 3:08 pm

It's unprovable, of course, but I'm reminded of the narratives I've read from Mormon apologists in the past when they're trying to provide evidence that the Book of Mormon is an ancient record. This is more solid than any Book of Mormon archaeology proof ever created. It's more provable than the hoops people jump through to reconcile contradictions and anachronisms. If he were to use the same methodology and reasoning to make a pro-Book of Mormon narrative, then he'd have a book deal with Deseret.

That being said, I think it's too complicated for me to believe. It's enough to say that there were TONS of contemporary influences on Joseph Smith to help explain where much of the theology came from without having to add in a bunch of conspirators. Smith was living in a milieu of masonry, magic, and speculation about Native Americans. From John Smith at Dartmouth to Emanuel Swedenborg, there were plenty of people thinking the same things and developing similar theologies. It only looks unique now because Mormonism is the only version to really survive and sufficiently spread. I think the Smith family knew there was a con going on, but they were fine with it because it brought opportunity and status. Unfortunately for them, they all ended up paying a steep price in the end.
“You want to know something? We are still in the Dark Ages. The Dark Ages--they haven't ended yet.” - Vonnegut

L'enfer, c'est les autres - JP

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moksha
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Re: The Lucy Code

Post by moksha » Thu May 17, 2018 5:08 am

Is this the same video that had the Joseph Smith, Sr. family working as gravediggers for Dartmouth College?
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Hagoth
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Re: The Lucy Code

Post by Hagoth » Thu May 17, 2018 6:38 am

moksha wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 5:08 am
Is this the same video that had the Joseph Smith, Sr. family working as gravediggers for Dartmouth College?
Yup, that's the one. If nothing else it's entertaining. There are a lot of things in it that are plausible, but they are presented without a lot of evidence. I do think the connection from Mormonism back to John Smith at Dartmouth via Hyrum is pretty compelling. It would be pretty remarkable if Hyrum had been taught all of those things that just happened to end up in Mormonism but failed to mention them to his brother Joseph who was receiving the same information from God.

Lucy's role seems hard to overlook too. She seemed to be the choreographer of the family's magical pursuits, she was the one who perpetuated and emphasized the family's prophetic penchant, going back generations, including Joseph Senior's precursor Lehi dream.

Another interesting parallel from the video that I had never heard of was the masonic Elect of Nine rite, in which a guard of Solomon's temple is found drunk and is beheaded with his own sword by the protagonist. Imagine what BoM apologists would do with that if it were an ancient Jewish tradition, rather than a masonic one.

ETA: I found the reference in the Elect of Nine rite. Not a sword, but a dagger:

"Joabert, inflamed with rage, entered, and by the aid of a lamp which was burning, saw the villain asleep lying on his back. A dagger lay at his feet, which Joabert seized and struck with all his might, first on the head, and then in the heart. The villain sprang up with fury; but, immediately dropped dead at his feet, and pronounced the word Necum. Joabert cut off his head."
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

jfro18
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Re: The Lucy Code

Post by jfro18 » Thu May 17, 2018 7:12 am

Hagoth wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 6:38 am
Another interesting parallel from the video that I had never heard of was the masonic Elect of Nine rite, in which a guard of Solomon's temple is found drunk and is beheaded with his own sword by the protagonist. Imagine what BoM apologists would do with that if it were an ancient Jewish tradition, rather than a masonic one.

ETA: I found the reference in the Elect of Nine rite. Not a sword, but a dagger:

"Joabert, inflamed with rage, entered, and by the aid of a lamp which was burning, saw the villain asleep lying on his back. A dagger lay at his feet, which Joabert seized and struck with all his might, first on the head, and then in the heart. The villain sprang up with fury; but, immediately dropped dead at his feet, and pronounced the word Necum. Joabert cut off his head."
That's a pretty striking coincidence - hard to believe that hasn't been covered at some point in the past, yet not a mention of it on FAIR. Weird.

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Red Ryder
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Re: The Lucy Code

Post by Red Ryder » Thu May 17, 2018 9:55 am

It's possible it could be source material considering the other aspects of Masonry Joseph used in Mormonism.

In my mind there's a pretty strong pattern of Joseph Smith borrowing ideas from his surroundings.
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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oliver_denom
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Re: The Lucy Code

Post by oliver_denom » Thu May 17, 2018 12:27 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 9:55 am
It's possible it could be source material considering the other aspects of Masonry Joseph used in Mormonism.

In my mind there's a pretty strong pattern of Joseph Smith borrowing ideas from his surroundings.
This is the one thing that the video never addressed, the presence of some seemingly anti-masonic passages surrounding the Gaddianton Robbers. Martin Harris joined an anti-masonic party and declared the Book of Mormon to be an "anti-masonic bible". It could fit in with the narrative that the book was originally meant to be a pro-masonic book, but that strategy changed midstream as popular sentiment moved against masonry. It could have also acted as bate for Martin Harris to give him more reason to fund the printing. It certainly wouldn't be the last time a revelation was used to get him to cough up money.
“You want to know something? We are still in the Dark Ages. The Dark Ages--they haven't ended yet.” - Vonnegut

L'enfer, c'est les autres - JP

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felixfabulous
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Re: The Lucy Code

Post by felixfabulous » Thu May 17, 2018 12:56 pm

Interesting theory, I enjoyed watching it. I think that Joseph memorizing pages and using the rock/hat for a dramatic delivery is very likely. I think it's interesting how closely Joseph and Hyrum worked together on everything, very likely that he contributed. I also think one of the most interesting parts of the translation narrative is how Joseph would not talk about it at the founding of the Church.

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moksha
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Re: The Lucy Code

Post by moksha » Thu May 17, 2018 7:16 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 6:38 am
moksha wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 5:08 am
Is this the same video that had the Joseph Smith, Sr. family working as gravediggers for Dartmouth College?
Yup, that's the one. I do think the connection from Mormonism back to John Smith at Dartmouth via Hyrum is pretty compelling.
Wonder if working for Dr. Victor Frankenstein would have been more lucrative than the Dartmouth College Medical School? If nothing else the Smith family could have enjoyed a European vacation.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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