Church apologizes for Racism!

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Palerider
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Re: Church apologizes for Racism!

Post by Palerider » Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:18 pm

Jeffret wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:29 pm
Jeff wrote:
Palerider wrote: Why do you keep trying to deny my freedom of speech? Why do you keep trying to tell me what I can and cannot say?
I think this is beneath you. You know very well that's not what this says. I really don't want to question your literacy or comprehension skills but I feel like I'm being forced to.
You keep trying to tell me what I can and cannot say. How is that not trying to deny my Freedom of Speech?

(According to your definitions)
Haven't done that at all. Where do you get that?

Never mind I know you're short on time....
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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RubinHighlander
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Re: Church apologizes for Racism!

Post by RubinHighlander » Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:31 am

I was milling around the web and came across this Thinker of Thoughts video where he talks about the hoax apology site. There's a clip in there from Oaks, explaining that he was convinced the ban was from God and how he prayed for the ban to be lifted. Then at minute 18 there's a black TBM woman offering up her feelings on the matter of whether the ban was from God or men. It made me hurt inside and she tears along with her as I watched her pour out her heart on this topic. I cannot imagine what that pain must be like to be in the thick of the Cogdis over this policy and have leaders offer contradicting opinions on it. What a terrible thing this is, when someone wants so badly to believe in Jesus Christ and God and their unconditional love, only to have it all Fd up by men.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FR4R-Y85p3E

I'm so grateful I don't have to be in the messed up business of religion anymore, but I still feel much empathy for those trying to navigate it. Although I've never had to grapple directly with the race issues of the church, I've grappled with so much other church dogma BS, to the point I almost ended my life because of it. These are the things that make me angry and hateful toward the COB and many other religions that perpetuate BS across the globe.
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
--Douglas Adams

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE

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Palerider
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Re: Church apologizes for Racism!

Post by Palerider » Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:40 pm

This sister's statement is pretty heart rending. An observation here would be that it is LDS leadership who would prefer that she just be silent and not express herself. Or at a minimum, just do it with your bishop where no one else can hear.

The reason? Partially because she makes a great logical argument, even if it were unemotional it is a great argument. The other aspect is that in a somewhat subtle way it makes leadership look bad or at least terribly wrong headed. And they really don't like being questioned as to their authority.

But from past interviews we know what the church teaches. From Oaks:

"It is wrong to criticize church leaders even when the criticism is correct."

And in the talk he gave at the Be One gathering he doubled down on this concept by saying that he allowed his loyalty to leadership to overide his conscience to do what was right. In essence he repressed his knowledge of the truth and chose silence rather than speak truth to power.

This sort of cowardice actually permeates the church. It was one of my earliest shelf items that always rubbed me wrong. Why did this yellow streak prevail among so many members? Now I know.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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alas
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Re: Church apologizes for Racism!

Post by alas » Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:21 am

RubinHighlander wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:31 am
I was milling around the web and came across this Thinker of Thoughts video where he talks about the hoax apology site. There's a clip in there from Oaks, explaining that he was convinced the ban was from God and how he prayed for the ban to be lifted. Then at minute 18 there's a black TBM woman offering up her feelings on the matter of whether the ban was from God or men. It made me hurt inside and she tears along with her as I watched her pour out her heart on this topic. I cannot imagine what that pain must be like to be in the thick of the Cogdis over this policy and have leaders offer contradicting opinions on it. What a terrible thing this is, when someone wants so badly to believe in Jesus Christ and God and their unconditional love, only to have it all Fd up by men.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FR4R-Y85p3E

I'm so grateful I don't have to be in the messed up business of religion anymore, but I still feel much empathy for those trying to navigate it. Although I've never had to grapple directly with the race issues of the church, I've grappled with so much other church dogma BS, to the point I almost ended my life because of it. These are the things that make me angry and hateful toward the COB and many other religions that perpetuate BS across the globe.
I don't know, I think it is a bit more hopeful when the leaders are offering contradictory opinions on whether or not the ban was from men or God. If all of them were still willing to throw God under the bus, it would be much more painful to feel that God loves you less because of how much skin pigmentation you were born with. True, it is confusing to have some church leaders claiming it was God's will and some admit it was a mistake made by a man, but at least some church leaders have progressed to the point where they can admit that maybe BY was a bigot rather than throw God under the bus as a bigot.

Consider the feelings of women who go to the temple and hear how they will be priestesses unto their husband just like he is now a priest unto God, in other words, the husband will be her God. She is not and never will be equal to any man, but will be subject to him for eternity. Is being a wife so much higher than being a servant in the CK? I don't know if black's being told that they are only good enough to be servants to Gods is all that much better than women being told we will be concubines in a harem (a wife of lesser status is a concubine, and if the husband becomes a God and the woman is just a queen and priestess unto him, then she is of lesser status)

Now, at least SOME general authorities are saying, "no, that business about how black's can never have priesthood or become Gods is not from our Heavenly Father." But I have not heard one say that the temple ceremony itself is not from HF. That the sexism built into it is a mistake of men. (Probably the same man, BY) They just hedge on the idea that anyone becomes Gods, saying that he doesn't know if we teach that. But the temple pretty much says men will become Gods, and their wives priestesses unto them, and there is real confusion about do women become Gods or is "goddess" like the Roman gods where there is one highest God and others below him and still others under them? That women become gods was one item of false doctrine that BRM's Mormon Doctrine was critized for, because he implied that both men and women become Gods. But the church says men and women are equal, but clearly from the temple ceremony and structure of the church and husbands presiding, women are under men.

So, we at least have the church progressed to the point that black men become Gods, but do women? Or will women be concubines or consorts, unequal in rank to their polygamous husband? So, yes the confusion is painful, but there are tons of feminists who only stay in the church because the confusion gives them hope. And the church is so much further along on race than it is on gender. The only confusion still remaining is if the ban was originally from God.

Yes, it is painful to have church doctrine telling you that God loves you less than he loves someone else just because you were born who you were. But at least the official doctrine for lack of temple rights has change and the leaders are wondering if it ever was from God. But I think that is still less painful than having the doctrine still in place with confusion over what it means or church leaders being 100% behind the ban on black's holding priesthood being from God. As they currently are on women holding the priesthood and what is taught in the temple.

So, just saying that to me, the confusion is what gives hope that it was all wrong in the first place.

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Raylan Givens
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Re: Church apologizes for Racism!

Post by Raylan Givens » Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:29 pm

I just like how God is always thrown under the bus, "it wasn't the Lord's time or will." "God's ways, aren't our ways etc..." God is the BIGGEST racist right (because he designed his own DNA to be white).

I listened to Rev. France Davis of Calvary Baptist speak at the U of U. The Church was up for a sound a butt kicking in court, along with BSA. Remember, Scouts is a Priesthood calling, so no black adult leaders in LDS BSA...that looks bad, more than just a doctrinal issue since BSA was fully integrated.

Nothing moves the tide of things like a strong lawsuit, or political changes (same sex marriage in Hawaii and the Proclamation on the Family).

I understand this isolated Black LDS people, especially when they tell their already incredulous friends it was a hoax. I can still appreciate a well designed hoax...
"Ah, you know, I think you use the Bible to do whatever the hell you like" - Raylan Givens

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moksha
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Re: Church apologizes for Racism!

Post by moksha » Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:56 pm

I've since wondered if I could have spotted this as a hoax. Didn't have the chance because the first I heard about it was after it had been reported as a hoax. The only point of discernment I would have was the fact that the Church had resisted issuing an apology before this and had stated that the Church never apologizes. On the other hand, Church leaders were meeting publically with representatives of the NAACP to help kick off their B-1 Celebration commemorating the 40th year of ending Church apartheid, and that presented an ideal time for such an apology.

So who and what should people, disappointed that much wished for apology was a hoax, be most upset with? The maker of the hoax or the realization that such a hoped for apology will not be happening?
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

IT_Veteran
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Re: Church apologizes for Racism!

Post by IT_Veteran » Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:07 am

moksha wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:56 pm
I've since wondered if I could have spotted this as a hoax. Didn't have the chance because the first I heard about it was after it had been reported as a hoax. The only point of discernment I would have was the fact that the Church had resisted issuing an apology before this and had stated that the Church never apologizes. On the other hand, Church leaders were meeting publically with representatives of the NAACP to help kick off their B-1 Celebration commemorating the 40th year of ending Church apartheid, and that presented an ideal time for such an apology.

So who and what should people, disappointed that much wished for apology was a hoax, be most upset with? The maker of the hoax or the realization that such a hoped for apology will not be happening?
I only recognized it as a hoax after reading most of the way through it, thinking "this is too heartfelt to be real" and then noticing the hyphen in the URL.

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