Questions to get TBMs thinking

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oliblish
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Questions to get TBMs thinking

Post by oliblish » Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:05 pm

One question that I have asked my TBM wife to think about is this:
What would you say to a member of the FLDS church to show them that Warren Jeffs is not a prophet?
She did not bite at all. Even though this question doesn't say anything about the church directly, I think most TBMs will recognize right away that they don't want to think about this for too long. Almost anything they come up with can be turned right back at them.

This is one of those questions that I keep in my back pocket, ready to deploy at any time. But I have yet to see another opportunity to bring it up...
Stands next to Kolob, called by the Egyptians Oliblish, which is the next grand governing creation near to the celestial or the place where God resides; holding the key of power also, pertaining to other planets; as revealed from God to Abraham

dogbite
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Re: Questions to get TBMs thinking

Post by dogbite » Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:27 pm

What is the nature of good in relationship to God. See Mr. Deity.

https://youtu.be/pwf6QD-REMY

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MerrieMiss
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Re: Questions to get TBMs thinking

Post by MerrieMiss » Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:31 pm

I've asked my husband something like this:
If a set of missionaries came to our door or approached us on the street, if they told you they had a special message from god and wanted to share it, would you listen?
Of course the answer is "No" and the followup is why not? If you want truth, wouldn't you be willing to look for it? What makes you think anyone wants to hear the message the LDS missionaries have? Is it possible they have a message worth hearing?

He gets the point, and it makes him uncomfortable. He doesn't really want to engage in conversation past that. I use this, or a variation of it, all of the time in discussions. I don't know that it moves things forward much, but it does get him thinking about the other side of this.
The true opposite of order is not disorder but freedom. Most profoundly, the true opposite of control is not chaos but self-control. -Jay Griffiths

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Corsair
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Re: Questions to get TBMs thinking

Post by Corsair » Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:00 pm

oliblish wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:05 pm
One question that I have asked my TBM wife to think about is this:
What would you say to a member of the FLDS church to show them that Warren Jeffs is not a prophet?
She did not bite at all. Even though this question doesn't say anything about the church directly, I think most TBMs will recognize right away that they don't want to think about this for too long. Almost anything they come up with can be turned right back at them.

This is one of those questions that I keep in my back pocket, ready to deploy at any time. But I have yet to see another opportunity to bring it up...
I really like this question. It really gets to the heart of the whisper thin epistemology of LDS doctrine. But I think it is less effective unless the believer in your life brings it up first. Otherwise most believers assume you are picking a fight with them. If it wasn't my wife I probably would enjoy that fight.

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FiveFingerMnemonic
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Re: Questions to get TBMs thinking

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:09 pm

In my opinion the more effective way to phrase this question is to use the Community of Christ Prophet rather than Warren Jeffs. Jeffs is in prison, but Pres Veazey seems to be a model citizen. More comparable.

Reuben
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Re: Questions to get TBMs thinking

Post by Reuben » Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:06 pm

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:09 pm
In my opinion the more effective way to phrase this question is to use the Community of Christ Prophet rather than Warren Jeffs. Jeffs is in prison, but Pres Veazey seems to be a model citizen. More comparable.
Depends on who you're comparing with, and whether your conversation partner knows about all the stuff Joseph Smith got up to.
Not all those who wander are lost.

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vankimber
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Re: Questions to get TBMs thinking

Post by vankimber » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:54 pm

Once Adam and Eve’s “eyes were opened” could they just have decided to set that aside and “choose to believe” that nothing had changed?

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Hagoth
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Re: Questions to get TBMs thinking

Post by Hagoth » Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:35 am

To a particularly belligerent BIC TBM ridiculing you for not enduring to the end in the only-true-church: "And how is it that you came to be a member of the only true church? Did you search the world for truth and eliminate all other options before making your choice, or did it have something to do with where and when you happened to be born? What would your religion be if you had been born in Afghanistan? Would you be as convinced about the truthfulness of that religion? Take a look at a world map of the distributions of religions and see how easy it is to find a pattern of how people come to be members of their particular only-true-church."

To Mrs. Hagoth: "How does your sister feel about getting sealed to that widower, knowing that she'll also be married to his first wife for eternity?"

To religious people in general: "Can you demonstrate to me why your old book is any more valid than anyone else's old book?"

To testifying Mormons: Jehovah's Witnesses and Pentecostals bear testimonies as certain and powerful as yours. What's the difference?"

To someone who tells you that a testimony is found in the bearing of it: "So I should lie about it in front of a lot of people until I talk myself into it?"

To someone who claims a testimony of the Book of Mormon proves that the LDS church is true: "What about members of FLDS, Community of Christ, and all of the other Mormon factions who have a testimony of the Book of Mormon?"

To creationists: "I think the idea that life came about all by itself by natural processes is more wonderful and awe-inspiring than the idea that everything was hand built by some guy on a throne who is going to punish most of his children for eternity for various minor infractions and for doubting him."

To Mormons in general:
"If it's so important to God that everyone believes in the gold plates, why doesn't He just give them back? You say because faith is required? Isn't that what other sects say who want you to believe in their sacred stories?"

"Why do we put so much stock in the testimonies of three and eight witnesses of the gold plates, yet so easily dismiss thousands of eye witnesses of the Virgin Mary?" Why aren't the witnesses of James Strang's Nephite plates even worth considering?"

"Why did Joseph Smith change the "thus saith the Lord" revelations in the Book of Commandments, spoken directly to him by God, to say something entirely different in the Doctrine and Covenants version?"

"If our church leaders really believe in the Book of Abraham why isn't it on display for the world's scholars to marvel at, rather than stuffed in a 3-ring binder and buried in a library vault?"

"Why did our prophets, seers and revelators continue to believe in Mark Hoffman and pay him for forgeries of sacred and historical texts while he was murdering people to cover up his fraud? How could it be that the anti-Mormon Tanners saw through him while the First Presidency continued to believe and defend him?"

"Why does the leadership of our church reject the children of gay members stating that it only affects about 1% of our membership when Jesus taught that we should leave the 99% and reach out to the 1%? How did something that they admitted was a policy created by lawyers suddenly become a revelation from God because it didn't sit well with the less-bigoted membership?"

"Did you know the Proclamation on the Family was written by a lawyer named Richard Wilkins?"

"Have you ever heard of Helen Mar Kimball? Look her up."

"Can you imagine what it would be like to spend an entire year in a fully-enclosed boat that is tumbling through perpetual "monster waves" along with livestock, barrels of fish, bees, and all the food and water for you and those animals? And manure?"
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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A New Name
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Re: Questions to get TBMs thinking

Post by A New Name » Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:28 am

If Pres Nelson, The Prophet, came to you and personally asked for your 15-year-old daughter to be his plural wife, would you give her to him, or would you call the police?

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Hagoth
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Re: Questions to get TBMs thinking

Post by Hagoth » Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:41 am

A New Name wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:28 am
If Pres Nelson, The Prophet, came to you and personally asked for your 15-year-old daughter to be his plural wife, would you give her to him, or would you call the police?
That's a good one. Sometimes such questions can backfire. When I was a missionary someone asked me if I would drink poisoned Kool-aid if my prophet commanded it and I said yes. Of course, I followed it up with a list of reasons why I believed that would never happen, but the answer was still yes.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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MerrieMiss
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Re: Questions to get TBMs thinking

Post by MerrieMiss » Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:13 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:41 am
A New Name wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:28 am
If Pres Nelson, The Prophet, came to you and personally asked for your 15-year-old daughter to be his plural wife, would you give her to him, or would you call the police?
That's a good one. Sometimes such questions can backfire. When I was a missionary someone asked me if I would drink poisoned Kool-aid if my prophet commanded it and I said yes. Of course, I followed it up with a list of reasons why I believed that would never happen, but the answer was still yes.
A few months ago I found out my husband didn't know about Jonestown, so we watched a documentary and he read a lot online. He was absolutely horrified and disgusted and did see parallels with blind obedience in the church. He then got into an argument with his dad and proceeded to ask his father a milder question (but the same as what the people in Jonestown and other cults do to fund their churches), "If the church told you to sell and give all you had to the church and move to Missouri, would you do it?" Of course the answer was yes, and my husband ranted the whole way home about his stupid parents - his words, not mine. Asking such question of my FIL doesn't do anything to change my FIL's mind, but it's loading a shelf for my husband...
The true opposite of order is not disorder but freedom. Most profoundly, the true opposite of control is not chaos but self-control. -Jay Griffiths

IT_Veteran
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Re: Questions to get TBMs thinking

Post by IT_Veteran » Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:51 pm

I had a pretty infuriating discussion on FB with some TBMs from my wife’s ward today. It started with the FamilySearch announcement and someone quickly chimes in that the church would never change its policy.

I brought up the priesthood/temple ban and how everyone said for 130 years that it would never change. They talked about the church never being led astray by the prophet, so I shared on that too. I told her that despite the church claiming they don’t know why God instituted the ban, I did. I told her BY was a racist that not only supported slavery but believed it was divinely necessary for the salvation of the descendants of Cain.

That was after she and her husband (he of course chimed in several times throughout the thread) that both God and the church viewed black people as having equal worth (and LGBTQ people today).

She actually went and ready the discourse on slavery from By. She said she learned new things and had a different perspective now. Then immediately doubled down that the church couldn’t be wrong and always viewed people as having equal worth.

I guess the moral is that TBM’s are not going to fall for many (any?) of these questions. Mental gymnastics are something they’ve been practicing since a very young age.

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FiveFingerMnemonic
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Re: Questions to get TBMs thinking

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:55 pm

What do you think about Richard Bushman's fireside where he said the dominant narrative isn't true and can't be sustained? (Watch video clip)

Follow up with:
What do you think Patriarch Bushman meant by that statement?


What do you think about the recent BYU article about Adam Clarke's methodist bible commentary being a primary source for the JST changes?

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RubinHighlander
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Re: Questions to get TBMs thinking

Post by RubinHighlander » Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:15 pm

This one caused some cogdis for a TBM friend of mine:

"What do you think about that 12,000 year old camp site they found out in the Utah west desert?"

http://westerndigs.org/12000-year-old-c ... gist-says/

Now most TBMs probably don't even pay attention to the bible or BOM timelines so they won't put it together that human's existed before the 6k old creation story. However, if you have a smart TBM friends who knows the scriptural timelines, this might cause them to regurgitate their current mental gymnastics. Something like the compartmentalism of God/Man history vs. Earth's geologic history. Or, the symbolic nature of time in the scriptures vs. literal. If they try to discredit carbon dating and other modern dating methods, just walk away and don't dive any deeper.
Last edited by RubinHighlander on Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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oliblish
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Re: Questions to get TBMs thinking

Post by oliblish » Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:33 am

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:09 pm
In my opinion the more effective way to phrase this question is to use the Community of Christ Prophet rather than Warren Jeffs. Jeffs is in prison, but Pres Veazey seems to be a model citizen. More comparable.
I think that using Warren Jeffs is better in this case because it should be easier show he isn't a prophet. It is obvious for anyone outside the FLDS to see that he is not a prophet or even a decent person.

But when you try to convince a true believer, there isn't any argument that will pierce the armor. They just know he is a prophet because he is a prophet. The next step for the TBM is to recognize that they are doing the same thing. Few will actually allow themselves to make this connection, but just having the thought briefly enter their mind can let them know that something isn't quite right...
Stands next to Kolob, called by the Egyptians Oliblish, which is the next grand governing creation near to the celestial or the place where God resides; holding the key of power also, pertaining to other planets; as revealed from God to Abraham

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Corsair
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Re: Questions to get TBMs thinking

Post by Corsair » Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:33 am

A New Name wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:28 am
If Pres Nelson, The Prophet, came to you and personally asked for your 15-year-old daughter to be his plural wife, would you give her to him, or would you call the police?
I actually did get that opportunity once with an apologist friend and his wife. They have two daughters that are just about "a few months before their fifteenth birthday". I asked what they would do if the prophet asked them to marry them off to an apostle. The apologist and his wife looked at me like they had been caught with their hand in the cookie jar. The wife slowly said that Yes, she would allow this marriage, but she would need a divine manifestation.

I think this is why the angel with a drawn sword story works for many people instead of sounding like absolute baloney. While it's suspicious that only Joseph saw this angel, this kind of manifestation is what the average Mormon mother would want before such an arrangement could take place.

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moksha
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Re: Questions to get TBMs thinking

Post by moksha » Sat Jun 16, 2018 11:14 pm

oliblish wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:05 pm
What would you say to a member of the FLDS church to show them that Warren Jeffs is not a prophet?
Easy answer, bear your testimony and then follow it up with a plate of chocolate chip cookies. If the testimony did not impress them, then at least they can enjoy the cookies. Both of you have been warned to steer clear of the philosophies, sciences, and reasoning of Man.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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EternityIsNow
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Re: Questions to get TBMs thinking

Post by EternityIsNow » Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:14 am

If you received the most powerful spiritual witness in your life, and that witness told you that the church was not true, would you believe it?

Cadahangel
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Re: Questions to get TBMs thinking

Post by Cadahangel » Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:26 pm

EternityIsNow wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:14 am
If you received the most powerful spiritual witness in your life, and that witness told you that the church was not true, would you believe it?
I did

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2bizE
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Re: Questions to get TBMs thinking

Post by 2bizE » Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:04 am

IT_Veteran wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:51 pm
I had a pretty infuriating discussion on FB with some TBMs from my wife’s ward today. It started with the FamilySearch announcement and someone quickly chimes in that the church would never change its policy.

I brought up the priesthood/temple ban and how everyone said for 130 years that it would never change. They talked about the church never being led astray by the prophet, so I shared on that too. I told her that despite the church claiming they don’t know why God instituted the ban, I did. I told her BY was a racist that not only supported slavery but believed it was divinely necessary for the salvation of the descendants of Cain.

That was after she and her husband (he of course chimed in several times throughout the thread) that both God and the church viewed black people as having equal worth (and LGBTQ people today).

She actually went and ready the discourse on slavery from By. She said she learned new things and had a different perspective now. Then immediately doubled down that the church couldn’t be wrong and always viewed people as having equal worth.

I guess the moral is that TBM’s are not going to fall for many (any?) of these questions. Mental gymnastics are something they’ve been practicing since a very young age.
I think most of us were TBM before our shelves crashed. There is always hope that others will come around. It just takes time and exposure to truth.
~2bizE

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