Emily and Kyle Harris’ 14-Year Mixed Faith Journey

This is for encouragement, ideas, and support for people going through a faith transition no matter where you hope to end up. This is also the place to laugh, cry, and love together.
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Red Ryder
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Emily and Kyle Harris’ 14-Year Mixed Faith Journey

Post by Red Ryder » Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:34 pm

Has anyone listened to this Mormon Stories Podcast?

955-958: EMILY AND KYLE HARRIS’ 14-YEAR MIXED FAITH JOURNEY

https://www.mormonstories.org/podcast/e ... le-harris/

If so can someone do a write up or TLDL?

I banned myself from listening to Mormon themed podcasts 2 years ago to save headspace and sanity. I'm just wondering if this is a good one to listen to with the wife?

I'm feeling Mormon burn out from all sides of the spectrum and just can't get myself to listen. I have a long road trip coming up. If someone convinces me this is a good one then I may try and listen.

Thanks,
Red "too lazy to listen" Ryder
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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Archimedes
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Re: Emily and Kyle Harris’ 14-Year Mixed Faith Journey

Post by Archimedes » Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:48 pm

Sorry RR. I got as far as the initial quotes and had to pull the plug.

It looks like their story has a happy ending at least.
"She never loved you; she loved the church, her one true love. She used you to marry the church by proxy."

-- unknown reddit poster

jfro18
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Re: Emily and Kyle Harris’ 14-Year Mixed Faith Journey

Post by jfro18 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:49 am

It's really long as most mormon stories are... it has a happy ending but it took her a very long time to get to that point.

I listened while I worked - it was good but it just felt very tedious especially in the first big chunk of it.

I don't know if that helps- it seemed to fit most mixed faith marriages when one starts having a drink or not wearing the Gs.

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MalcolmVillager
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Re: Emily and Kyle Harris’ 14-Year Mixed Faith Journey

Post by MalcolmVillager » Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:36 am

RR you are wise. I am still stuck listening to every single mormon themed (okay not the faithful ones) podcast I can find. I cant stop. It is my outlet and therapy. It allows me to live every possible iteration of faith journey through the experience of others.

I have learned the good and bad of others journeys out or attempts to stay in. Anyway, I listened to this.

Ot is hard to say what is good for a more believing spouse. I had my wife watch a youtube video of a super TBM couple who found the truth and left together fairly quickly. I lived it. I thought it would help. But the message it sent was, see, we should leave the church. It was a big setback. DW has mentioned that several times, even last night at the MS retreat with JD himself.

Anyway, the problem with this episode is that although they were mixed faith for 14 years, it talks about how they struggled during those years. Eventually she got on the same page and now they are both out.

When sharing this or other "happy ending" stories with spouses or family, you risk them interpreting your intentions (even if they are your hopes). It can backfire (the backfire effect is real).

That said, I loved the episode. I agree that it was slow and long. But in a way I live that about MSP. There is a lot of mess to unpack and skipping over the details would take the humanity out of the stories.

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Red Ryder
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Re: Emily and Kyle Harris’ 14-Year Mixed Faith Journey

Post by Red Ryder » Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:40 am

MalcolmVillager wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:36 am
RR you are wise. I am still stuck listening to every single mormon themed (okay not the faithful ones) podcast I can find. I cant stop. It is my outlet and therapy. It allows me to live every possible iteration of faith journey through the experience of others.

I have learned the good and bad of others journeys out or attempts to stay in. Anyway, I listened to this.

Ot is hard to say what is good for a more believing spouse. I had my wife watch a youtube video of a super TBM couple who found the truth and left together fairly quickly. I lived it. I thought it would help. But the message it sent was, see, we should leave the church. It was a big setback. DW has mentioned that several times, even last night at the MS retreat with JD himself.

Anyway, the problem with this episode is that although they were mixed faith for 14 years, it talks about how they struggled during those years. Eventually she got on the same page and now they are both out.

When sharing this or other "happy ending" stories with spouses or family, you risk them interpreting your intentions (even if they are your hopes). It can backfire (the backfire effect is real).

That said, I loved the episode. I agree that it was slow and long. But in a way I live that about MSP. There is a lot of mess to unpack and skipping over the details would take the humanity out of the stories.
Thanks for this. Them both being out nullifies my intentions of sharing with the wife. We’ve become “content” with our spiritual situation and this may fly in the face of that similar to your YouTube video experience.

How was the retreat? I hope you do a write up.
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

jfro18
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Re: Emily and Kyle Harris’ 14-Year Mixed Faith Journey

Post by jfro18 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:40 pm

MalcolmVillager wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:36 am
RR you are wise. I am still stuck listening to every single mormon themed (okay not the faithful ones) podcast I can find. I cant stop. It is my outlet and therapy. It allows me to live every possible iteration of faith journey through the experience of others.

I have learned the good and bad of others journeys out or attempts to stay in. Anyway, I listened to this.

Ot is hard to say what is good for a more believing spouse. I had my wife watch a youtube video of a super TBM couple who found the truth and left together fairly quickly. I lived it. I thought it would help. But the message it sent was, see, we should leave the church. It was a big setback. DW has mentioned that several times, even last night at the MS retreat with JD himself.
I'm kind of here too. I spend a lot of time working with boxes, so I usually listen to music through the headphones but have done a ton of Mormon podcasts since finding out all of the historical issues ~5 months ago. It is therapy, but they also make my blood boil sometimes because you just can't believe that you believed it and that you have family who look down on you because you don't believe it now.

I mentioned John Dehlin to my wife at one point and she knew the name but not much else. I don't think she has any interest in listening to them, but I told her about how many couples have been on there where one person says they'd never leave the church but eventually open up to really learning the history and then leave. This was of course early on when I wasn't really being smart about how to approach things, but those early conversations definitely triggered the backfire effect without question.

I'd love to show her the Brother Jake videos, but I don't know that she'd find those funny even if she left... I find them hilarious, but I am far enough removed from it to want that therapy... she wants the comfort that her parents/family outside of me give her with church. Not sure she will ever trust me enough to listen to some of the MS podcasts that deal with these issues. Maybe some day, but I doubt it.

Until then, I listen to MS/Infants on Thrones/Mormon Discussions and laugh incredulously at it while crying internally.

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MalcolmVillager
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Re: Emily and Kyle Harris’ 14-Year Mixed Faith Journey

Post by MalcolmVillager » Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:40 am

TL:DR my wife and I went to the MS retreat with JD. It was great for me, uncomfortable at times for her. The audience loved it and JD does a great job of giving them what they want/need. It was worth the money and those who feel the pull and have the opportunity should go! All the details below.

So my wife and I were able to go to the MS Retreat in Idaho Falls this weekend with JD. He said it was the largest one ever with 75 people. Probably 50 locals and 25 from Utah and elsewhere. It was an overview of the topics by John and then short intros from everyone the first night. It went from 7pm to about 10:30 and then everyone hung out and talked until almost midnight. The crowd was mostly those who have left or are in the process of leaving. Some had existed decades ago, most were 2 years or less into the process, and some were as fresh as 2 weeks into their faith transition.

John was great. Tears were shed, loud laughter occured, bonding of new friendships and old. There were a few TBMs. Some couples on the same page. Some mixed faith. Some married individuals came alone because believing spouses could not support them or were even unaware of their spouses disaffection or attendance.

This was a big step for my wife. I have been going through my FC for almost 6 years, she has resisted for most of that but in the last year had been willing to look at the mess. She has joined the Thoughtful Faith FB group with me and is now aware of essentially all of the mess (but had not dived in deep on anything except Polygamy and social issues like sexism, patriarchy, LGBTQ, youth interviews, etc...). She considers herself nuanced and aware, but she wants to make it work for community, the kids, and extended family. Without putting words in her mouth, she doesn't believe in the one true church or leadership being directed by God.

The Saturday session was 9-6 and filled with presentations by JD, heavy audience participation, a few structured table practice/role plays, and some informal luvh/break chat times. The presentations were good, had good content, and very practical tools. Overall less intimate than the Mormon Matters retreat with Dan Wotherspoon and Natasha Helfer Parker and less organized. Comparing the two events, both of us preferred the MM retreat much more than the MS. Thay is probably mostly due to the fact that we are trying to make church work for us and MM was more friendly to that. In addition to the more intimate group size and longer format.

Saturday night there was an hour break for dinner and then Karaoke started. There were some adult beverages present and many partook, although not all and JD made it clear that he doesn't drink and that was a good line to protect those who also didn't want that.

Karaoke was rowdy and fun. I got ripped into singing Weird Alma, "You'll be Back" with JD. It was a riot. He is a talented singer. I am a hack. That was somewhat surreal for me. Never in a million years, would I have thought that would happen.

We took off early from karaoke since Malinda wasn't loving some things. We went home and had a 3-4 hour personal debrief. This exposed some worries and vulnerabilities for both of us. We got real. I sobbed uncontrollably, probably more than any other time in my life as I bore it all to her, telling her of my complete commitment to her and out girls, and my willingness to stay in the middle for them.

I confessed all my hidden past. I told her about NOM. I told her my name and why I chose it. I balled like a baby. It was special and powerful. She accepted me completely.

She shared some very personal things with me. This gave us some tools to communicate and have hard conversations. She told me that the reason she finally chose to open her eyes and look at this stuff was because I am a good man, she trusts me, and knows that I could not have been recieved by satan. That was so validating to hear.

Mind blowing. We needed that.

Anyway, let me know if you have any other questions

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Emower
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Re: Emily and Kyle Harris’ 14-Year Mixed Faith Journey

Post by Emower » Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:01 am

I am listening to it right now. I love Malcom's response, you definitely do not want to come across as "see, you should get your crap together and leave like this woman did." I have been so open about my feelings, and I have engaged my wife so much, that we are able to listen to stuff like this when I give the caveat that I am not trying to get her out, I just want to talk about the feelings and issues this podcast raises. because I have a track record of just wanting to talk about this stuff, and not asking her to leave, I have some credibility when I say that. I have been successful so far (I think) in talking about a faith crisis without the assumption that I am trying to get her to leave. I think if you guys are in a "comfortable" place it may be the ideal time to begin to talk about what has happened to you. And take it from that angle, that you just want to talk about your feelings. And this podcast does bring up tons of the typical feelings that a faith crisis brings up.

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Emower
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Re: Emily and Kyle Harris’ 14-Year Mixed Faith Journey

Post by Emower » Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:11 am

MalcolmVillager wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:40 am

We took off early from karaoke since Malinda wasn't loving some things. We went home and had a 3-4 hour personal debrief. This exposed some worries and vulnerabilities for both of us. We got real. I sobbed uncontrollably, probably more than any other time in my life as I bore it all to her, telling her of my complete commitment to her and out girls, and my willingness to stay in the middle for them.

I confessed all my hidden past. I told her about NOM. I told her my name and why I chose it. I balled like a baby. It was special and powerful. She accepted me completely.

She shared some very personal things with me. This gave us some tools to communicate and have hard conversations. She told me that the reason she finally chose to open her eyes and look at this stuff was because I am a good man, she trusts me, and knows that I could not have been recieved by satan. That was so validating to hear.

Mind blowing. We needed that.

Anyway, let me know if you have any other questions
That's great Malcom. I had this experience with Diedre shortly after we listened to a MS podcast where the couples story mirrored our own fairly well. I cried more that night than I ever have before, primarily sharing my sorrow over not being able to be the man I promised her I would be. She was able to share with me that it mattered less to her then she ever thought it would. That night was a game changer for us, because it allowed me to feel accepted as I was by her, I was able to in turn accept her as she was without fear that she was going to somehow judge me. Before that night discussions always seemed to revolve around me confronting her with uncomfortable stuff, after that night I feel like it became more about me expressing how things affected me and how they affected her. She may have a different view on things, but I feel like an honest opening like that is the most valuable thing that can happen. Without it, you have misunderstanding and distance.

jfro18
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Re: Emily and Kyle Harris’ 14-Year Mixed Faith Journey

Post by jfro18 » Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:21 am

Emower wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:01 am
I am listening to it right now. I love Malcom's response, you definitely do not want to come across as "see, you should get your crap together and leave like this woman did." I have been so open about my feelings, and I have engaged my wife so much, that we are able to listen to stuff like this when I give the caveat that I am not trying to get her out, I just want to talk about the feelings and issues this podcast raises. because I have a track record of just wanting to talk about this stuff, and not asking her to leave, I have some credibility when I say that. I have been successful so far (I think) in talking about a faith crisis without the assumption that I am trying to get her to leave. I think if you guys are in a "comfortable" place it may be the ideal time to begin to talk about what has happened to you. And take it from that angle, that you just want to talk about your feelings. And this podcast does bring up tons of the typical feelings that a faith crisis brings up.
The one thing I thought about when listening to that podcast is that a lot of people say in their interviews/stories that they 'weren't trying to get their spouse to leave.'

Maybe I'm too cynical, but I just don't believe that. If you discover the truth about the church, and you're trying to open the eyes of your spouse to it... it's pretty clear what the preferred outcome is.

I'll be the first to admit (and admitted to my wife) that I was presenting the info to her because I feel so betrayed about being lied to, and that I feel all members should know the true history of the church. And I've told her that while we both know that she would prefer I was still going, I would prefer she wasn't and either of us saying otherwise are not being honest.

The *only* caveat to that is that if she did actually trust me enough to look into church history/scriptural issues, and at the end of it said "You're right about some of it, but I still want to go because I was raised that way or whatever," I'd be at least OK with that. So I suppose to that end my goal isn't to get her out as much as it is just opening her eyes to the reality that has been hidden from us. But I do feel that often in these MS podcasts (and others), a lot of people just don't want to be honest about that aspect of the journey because it sounds horrible to just say "Yeah, after finding out I lived and believed something completely untrue I wanted to get everyone I cared about out as soon as I could." If I'm ever on a MS podcast I think I'd be clear that while I really just wanted her to know the things I learned, the real implication is that it's a fraudulent church and that I wanted every one I cared about out of that fan-fiction church. :lol:

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MalcolmVillager
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Re: Emily and Kyle Harris’ 14-Year Mixed Faith Journey

Post by MalcolmVillager » Sun Aug 12, 2018 2:09 pm

Emower wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:11 am
MalcolmVillager wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:40 am

We took off early from karaoke since Malinda wasn't loving some things. We went home and had a 3-4 hour personal debrief. This exposed some worries and vulnerabilities for both of us. We got real. I sobbed uncontrollably, probably more than any other time in my life as I bore it all to her, telling her of my complete commitment to her and out girls, and my willingness to stay in the middle for them.

I confessed all my hidden past. I told her about NOM. I told her my name and why I chose it. I balled like a baby. It was special and powerful. She accepted me completely.

She shared some very personal things with me. This gave us some tools to communicate and have hard conversations. She told me that the reason she finally chose to open her eyes and look at this stuff was because I am a good man, she trusts me, and knows that I could not have been recieved by satan. That was so validating to hear.

Mind blowing. We needed that.

Anyway, let me know if you have any other questions
That's great Malcom. I had this experience with Diedre shortly after we listened to a MS podcast where the couples story mirrored our own fairly well. I cried more that night than I ever have before, primarily sharing my sorrow over not being able to be the man I promised her I would be. She was able to share with me that it mattered less to her then she ever thought it would. That night was a game changer for us, because it allowed me to feel accepted as I was by her, I was able to in turn accept her as she was without fear that she was going to somehow judge me. Before that night discussions always seemed to revolve around me confronting her with uncomfortable stuff, after that night I feel like it became more about me expressing how things affected me and how they affected her. She may have a different view on things, but I feel like an honest opening like that is the most valuable thing that can happen. Without it, you have misunderstanding and distance.
Thanks Emower. It was amazing. Really amazing. (The conversation with my wife)

One thing JD helped us see at the retreat was that human intimacy is the most valued thing in life (for him, and for most people). He shared a quote from Robbin William's about how the loneliness of being alone is only surpassed by the loneliness you feel when you are with someone but cannot feel intimacy.

He talked about the steps of intimacy and how they dont have to lead to people being on the same page or being the same. But that differentiation and boundaries are important. Unconditional love can allow for a mixed faith marriage to work.

As much as I want us to be on the same page, it is more important that we can be open, respect each other, and not try to change everything.

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Emower
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Re: Emily and Kyle Harris’ 14-Year Mixed Faith Journey

Post by Emower » Sun Aug 12, 2018 2:23 pm

jfro18 wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:21 am
Emower wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:01 am
I am listening to it right now. I love Malcom's response, you definitely do not want to come across as "see, you should get your crap together and leave like this woman did." I have been so open about my feelings, and I have engaged my wife so much, that we are able to listen to stuff like this when I give the caveat that I am not trying to get her out, I just want to talk about the feelings and issues this podcast raises. because I have a track record of just wanting to talk about this stuff, and not asking her to leave, I have some credibility when I say that. I have been successful so far (I think) in talking about a faith crisis without the assumption that I am trying to get her to leave. I think if you guys are in a "comfortable" place it may be the ideal time to begin to talk about what has happened to you. And take it from that angle, that you just want to talk about your feelings. And this podcast does bring up tons of the typical feelings that a faith crisis brings up.
The one thing I thought about when listening to that podcast is that a lot of people say in their interviews/stories that they 'weren't trying to get their spouse to leave.'

Maybe I'm too cynical, but I just don't believe that. If you discover the truth about the church, and you're trying to open the eyes of your spouse to it... it's pretty clear what the preferred outcome is.

I'll be the first to admit (and admitted to my wife) that I was presenting the info to her because I feel so betrayed about being lied to, and that I feel all members should know the true history of the church. And I've told her that while we both know that she would prefer I was still going, I would prefer she wasn't and either of us saying otherwise are not being honest.

The *only* caveat to that is that if she did actually trust me enough to look into church history/scriptural issues, and at the end of it said "You're right about some of it, but I still want to go because I was raised that way or whatever," I'd be at least OK with that. So I suppose to that end my goal isn't to get her out as much as it is just opening her eyes to the reality that has been hidden from us. But I do feel that often in these MS podcasts (and others), a lot of people just don't want to be honest about that aspect of the journey because it sounds horrible to just say "Yeah, after finding out I lived and believed something completely untrue I wanted to get everyone I cared about out as soon as I could." If I'm ever on a MS podcast I think I'd be clear that while I really just wanted her to know the things I learned, the real implication is that it's a fraudulent church and that I wanted every one I cared about out of that fan-fiction church. :lol:
Well, not to be too snarky, and being totally honest, we have moved past that, regardless of whether you feel like that is really the case or not. I really don't wish what I went through on anyone. She knows that I would like it if she didn't wear G's, and that is about the only thing that makes me unhappy about the level of participation she has. But when I come to her and say "hey, I want to talk about the issues in this podcast," she knows that I am being honest now. That was not the case 2 years ago, and that is why we could not communicate about it. It sounds like a catch 22, but when I accepted her for who she was and what she wanted to believe, we could finally begin to communicate on a more authentic level.

jfro18
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Re: Emily and Kyle Harris’ 14-Year Mixed Faith Journey

Post by jfro18 » Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:27 pm

Emower wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 2:23 pm
Well, not to be too snarky, and being totally honest, we have moved past that, regardless of whether you feel like that is really the case or not. I really don't wish what I went through on anyone. She knows that I would like it if she didn't wear G's, and that is about the only thing that makes me unhappy about the level of participation she has. But when I come to her and say "hey, I want to talk about the issues in this podcast," she knows that I am being honest now. That was not the case 2 years ago, and that is why we could not communicate about it. It sounds like a catch 22, but when I accepted her for who she was and what she wanted to believe, we could finally begin to communicate on a more authentic level.
Sorry that wasn't meant at you or anyone in particular - I just meant in general when we (the non-believing spouse) are going through this, we are wanting our spouse to trust us enough to actually dive in on the issues... with the hope they will see the problem and either leave or like you said, lower the obedience by dropping the Gs or callings or whatever.

I totally agree about the Gs being the most depressing part of the church. I hated them from the day I got them - I was a convert and I was never told about them for years until the temple prep classes and I remember just being shell-shocked that I'd have to wear them for the rest of my life. I had heard the "magic underwear" jokes before but I was also told not to search about bad church things online and did that so I was really unaware. If only I could go back in time and tell my younger self to think critically about groups that ask so much of you...

And you're right - it's easier once you get a point where you know that neither person is going to bail, but at least for me it is still tough to have honest conversations about the issues because I am coming at it from a "this is what the history tells us" and my wife comes at it from "this is what I was told and my feelings confirm it" place. I hope to get to where you are soon because it is really difficult still to kind of wrap my head around, and I have no idea what she's really thinking about anything since the topic is so heavily avoided.

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Re: Emily and Kyle Harris’ 14-Year Mixed Faith Journey

Post by John G. » Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:55 pm

I’m listening to it now. Pretty good so far.

At first I was suprised how long MS podcasts are, but now I like them long. More to listen to!

The other good podcsat is Radio Free Mormon for the more analytical. Looking forward to more podcasts about general conference! Radio Free Mormon and oliver provide great analysis of General Conference!
"If your children are taught untruths on evolution in the public schools or even in our Church schools, provide them with a copy of President Joseph Fielding Smith's excellent rebuttal in his book Man, His Origin and Destiny."

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Re: Emily and Kyle Harris’ 14-Year Mixed Faith Journey

Post by moksha » Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:00 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:34 pm
I banned myself from listening to Mormon themed podcasts 2 years ago to save headspace and sanity.
My attention span makes it hard for me to watch or listen to any of them, except for the educational documentaries from Brother Jake. When Consiglieri gets on a role it is also easy to pay attention. Maybe you and your wife could watch some Brother Jake documentaries together.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Emower
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Re: Emily and Kyle Harris’ 14-Year Mixed Faith Journey

Post by Emower » Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:12 pm

jfro18 wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:27 pm
Emower wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 2:23 pm
Well, not to be too snarky, and being totally honest, we have moved past that, regardless of whether you feel like that is really the case or not. I really don't wish what I went through on anyone. She knows that I would like it if she didn't wear G's, and that is about the only thing that makes me unhappy about the level of participation she has. But when I come to her and say "hey, I want to talk about the issues in this podcast," she knows that I am being honest now. That was not the case 2 years ago, and that is why we could not communicate about it. It sounds like a catch 22, but when I accepted her for who she was and what she wanted to believe, we could finally begin to communicate on a more authentic level.
Sorry that wasn't meant at you or anyone in particular - I just meant in general when we (the non-believing spouse) are going through this, we are wanting our spouse to trust us enough to actually dive in on the issues... with the hope they will see the problem and either leave or like you said, lower the obedience by dropping the Gs or callings or whatever.

I totally agree about the Gs being the most depressing part of the church. I hated them from the day I got them - I was a convert and I was never told about them for years until the temple prep classes and I remember just being shell-shocked that I'd have to wear them for the rest of my life. I had heard the "magic underwear" jokes before but I was also told not to search about bad church things online and did that so I was really unaware. If only I could go back in time and tell my younger self to think critically about groups that ask so much of you...

And you're right - it's easier once you get a point where you know that neither person is going to bail, but at least for me it is still tough to have honest conversations about the issues because I am coming at it from a "this is what the history tells us" and my wife comes at it from "this is what I was told and my feelings confirm it" place. I hope to get to where you are soon because it is really difficult still to kind of wrap my head around, and I have no idea what she's really thinking about anything since the topic is so heavily avoided.
Thanks. There was a time, not long ago when we couldn't talk, because I was on the offensive. Corsair, RR, Kishkumen, and all the good people here really helped me realize that there was no need for anger and that I needed to just live my life and live it well. I turned a corner at some point, we had a couple haaaard conversations where we both opened up, and I quit coming to a conversation on the attack or with an agenda. Now if I initiate something, I explain why up front, and it is usually to get her perspective. Another thing that changed is that I learned to value her perspective. Before, her perspective did not mean much to me because I thought it was wrong and she could sense that. Once I learned to accept it and value it for what it was --- the thoughts of the person I love most --- conversations became easier and meaningful. I do enjoy it when she agrees with me, but that is no longer my goal.

I hope you get there too. One thing that helped me, was, coincidentally, a MS podcast where a wife was explaining how her husband made her feel unsafe in her life. That really hit me hard when I realized how insecure and unsafe I was making my wife feel. I apologized to her and that kickstarted the hard convos.

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