...the great Robert Kirby — gave me weed

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Red Ryder
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...the great Robert Kirby — gave me weed

Post by Red Ryder » Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:47 pm

I wonder if the Salt Lake Tribune will take disciplinary action against Kirby?

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900 ... event.html

On one hand he’s known for his humor and irreverence. On the other he’s out of line for this insensitivity.

What do you guys think? Joke gone bad or insensitive unaware man? What about the marijuana?

Will he be called in to an “escort” of love? :lol:
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Anon70
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Re: ...the great Robert Kirby — gave me weed

Post by Anon70 » Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:54 pm

I’ve been a fan for a long time. I was disappointed that he wasn’t worthy of the nom pedestal I had put him on.

His reaction to people’s reactions really told me who he is. I’ve stopped following and doubt I’ll read him again or subscribe to his paper. It feels unforgiving of me but also right.

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moksha
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Re: ...the great Robert Kirby — gave me weed

Post by moksha » Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:48 am

I wondered if Kirby would face a reprisal from dissing Mckenna Denson in his column.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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MoPag
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Re: ...the great Robert Kirby — gave me weed

Post by MoPag » Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:56 am

Anon70 wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:54 pm
I’ve been a fan for a long time. I was disappointed that he wasn’t worthy of the nom pedestal I had put him on.

His reaction to people’s reactions really told me who he is. I’ve stopped following and doubt I’ll read him again or subscribe to his paper. It feels unforgiving of me but also right.
Same^^ I thought he was an ally. This hurts.

moksha wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:48 am
I wondered if Kirby would face a reprisal from dissing Mckenna Denson in his column.
I know Crystal Legionaries (the woman who yelled "stop protecting sexual predators" during the solemn assembly) went after him for this on FB. He got really nasty with her and eventually blocked her.

It really sucks when someone you admire shows a really messed up side of themselves. It's hard to process stuff like this.
...walked eye-deep in hell
believing in old men’s lies...--Ezra Pound

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Corsair
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Re: ...the great Robert Kirby — gave me weed

Post by Corsair » Fri Sep 14, 2018 7:48 am

Brother Kirby is commonly seen as the curmudgeonly, but principled, outsider of LDS culture. It's a view that I think he tries to promote, but his actual persona seems to be a bit disappointing. I expect to continue reading his columns, but it's unfortunate that Kirby was "speaking as a man", and not as the principled outsider we hoped he would be.

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Fifi de la Vergne
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Re: ...the great Robert Kirby — gave me weed

Post by Fifi de la Vergne » Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:06 pm

Tribune columnist Robert Kirby suspended after investigation into inappropriate behavior: https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/09/15/ ... ist-robert
Joy is the emotional expression of the courageous Yes to one's own true being.

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Not Buying It
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Re: ...the great Robert Kirby — gave me weed

Post by Not Buying It » Sat Sep 15, 2018 6:19 am

Well it didn’t take long for the Deseret News to jump on that story. Wish they were 1/10th as quick to cover stuff done wrong by Church leaders.

As for Kirby, his boorish behavior is reprehensible with the marijuana incident at Sunstone, no defending that. But to those of you ready to strip him of his NOM credentials because of his opinion on McKenna’s testimony, I’d remind you that he has very publicly disagreed over the years, often vehemently, with the Church in ways that nerfy, yellow-bellied chickens like me will only do on anonymous forums like this. If disagreeing with McKenna’s testimony is all it takes to lose your NOMness, guess I have lost mine too.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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alas
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Re: ...the great Robert Kirby — gave me weed

Post by alas » Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:05 am

Well, since I don’t put anybody up on pedestals, I can’t say that Robert Kirby fell off, but I am disappointed in him.

But two, (or is it three or four now?) wrongs don’t make a right as far as Ms Denison goes, and two wrongs don’t make a victim either as fas as the Sunstone situation goes, or when a woman hides that she is offended, she can’t exactly blame the guy for not catching on that she was offended.

Let me explain so people don’t think I am on the wrong side of feminism here.

I am all for supporting victims of abuse, rape, molestation. And I understand that victims need to be heard. Really heard and perps need to be held accountable. I totally understand her saying what she did in Fast and Testimony Meeting at the A.H.’s (ass hat) ward. But, that really isn’t the time or place to make a public announcement that the AH is an AH. Was the rapist wrong? Yes and there is no defending him or the church covering up. But that does not make Ms Denson not guilty of disrupting people’s worship. She was wrong to disrupt F&T meeting. But I understand her desperation and do not blame her for being stupid and disrespectful of others. She is striking out in pain. Yeah, I get that. Doesn’t make her right about what she did. Was Kirby a bit of an insensitive “man” for criticizing her, well, yeah but he has never been raped and doesn’t get it. Forgive him for being insensitive at least till you know he should know better.

As far as his response to criticism...eh

As far as his comment to the woman who should have been treated like a fellow Sunstone speaker, not a call girl, well that was a joke that sure wasn’t funny told to someone with too little experience with boorish behavior to stand up for herself. So, yeah, I hold her partly at fault for not drawing a line at his first ignorant comment. When women try to hide that they are offended, well, how is a man supposed to know she was offended? SHE needs to learn boundaries just exactly as much as Kirby does. It was a bad joke. I have had men that I respected make bad sexist jokes and I told them to cut it out. If they learned, I didn’t lose any respect for them. If they continued, I ended any contact or made my complaint official. One was a college professor and I told him his”jokes” were highly inappropriate and cut it out. He apologized and it didn’t happen again. Another college professor, same thing and he didn’t cut it out, so I complained to the department chair who brushed it off, so I went to the dean of women.

Part of consent is women need to learn to say “no”. Otherwise how are guys supposed to know when they do not have consent?

That is a two way street and a woman can’t cry “victim” if she never said no to begin with.

So, I am disappointed in Kirby, but not horrified. His biggest crime seems to be he is a guy who hasn’t been woke. This is his wake up call. Let’s see how he does from now on.

The MJ, well, that could get him jail time, so that is just stupid.

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Re: ...the great Robert Kirby — gave me weed

Post by Thoughtful » Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:31 am

alas wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:05 am
Well, since I don’t put anybody up on pedestals, I can’t say that Robert Kirby fell off, but I am disappointed in him.

But two, (or is it three or four now?) wrongs don’t make a right as far as Ms Denison goes, and two wrongs don’t make a victim either as fas as the Sunstone situation goes, or when a woman hides that she is offended, she can’t exactly blame the guy for not catching on that she was offended.

Let me explain so people don’t think I am on the wrong side of feminism here.

I am all for supporting victims of abuse, rape, molestation. And I understand that victims need to be heard. Really heard and perps need to be held accountable. I totally understand her saying what she did in Fast and Testimony Meeting at the A.H.’s (ass hat) ward. But, that really isn’t the time or place to make a public announcement that the AH is an AH. Was the rapist wrong? Yes and there is no defending him or the church covering up. But that does not make Ms Denson not guilty of disrupting people’s worship. She was wrong to disrupt F&T meeting. But I understand her desperation and do not blame her for being stupid and disrespectful of others. She is striking out in pain. Yeah, I get that. Doesn’t make her right about what she did. Was Kirby a bit of an insensitive “man” for criticizing her, well, yeah but he has never been raped and doesn’t get it. Forgive him for being insensitive at least till you know he should know better.

As far as his response to criticism...eh

As far as his comment to the woman who should have been treated like a fellow Sunstone speaker, not a call girl, well that was a joke that sure wasn’t funny told to someone with too little experience with boorish behavior to stand up for herself. So, yeah, I hold her partly at fault for not drawing a line at his first ignorant comment. When women try to hide that they are offended, well, how is a man supposed to know she was offended? SHE needs to learn boundaries just exactly as much as Kirby does. It was a bad joke. I have had men that I respected make bad sexist jokes and I told them to cut it out. If they learned, I didn’t lose any respect for them. If they continued, I ended any contact or made my complaint official. One was a college professor and I told him his”jokes” were highly inappropriate and cut it out. He apologized and it didn’t happen again. Another college professor, same thing and he didn’t cut it out, so I complained to the department chair who brushed it off, so I went to the dean of women.

Part of consent is women need to learn to say “no”. Otherwise how are guys supposed to know when they do not have consent?

That is a two way street and a woman can’t cry “victim” if she never said no to begin with.

So, I am disappointed in Kirby, but not horrified. His biggest crime seems to be he is a guy who hasn’t been woke. This is his wake up call. Let’s see how he does from now on.

The MJ, well, that could get him jail time, so that is just stupid.
On the flipside, by the time they are 11 years old, most women are well aware that pushing back against a man's ego can result in violence or death. She didn't say no and tried to keep composure in a humiliating situation because most of us are aware of how it can go wrong.

Kirby may not be raping and killing women who push back, but like all men, he can and does benefit from the men who do as its keeping women careful in their reactions.

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alas
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Re: ...the great Robert Kirby — gave me weed

Post by alas » Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:32 am

Thoughtful wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:31 am
alas wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:05 am
Well, since I don’t put anybody up on pedestals, I can’t say that Robert Kirby fell off, but I am disappointed in him.

But two, (or is it three or four now?) wrongs don’t make a right as far as Ms Denison goes, and two wrongs don’t make a victim either as fas as the Sunstone situation goes, or when a woman hides that she is offended, she can’t exactly blame the guy for not catching on that she was offended.

Let me explain so people don’t think I am on the wrong side of feminism here.

I am all for supporting victims of abuse, rape, molestation. And I understand that victims need to be heard. Really heard and perps need to be held accountable. I totally understand her saying what she did in Fast and Testimony Meeting at the A.H.’s (ass hat) ward. But, that really isn’t the time or place to make a public announcement that the AH is an AH. Was the rapist wrong? Yes and there is no defending him or the church covering up. But that does not make Ms Denson not guilty of disrupting people’s worship. She was wrong to disrupt F&T meeting. But I understand her desperation and do not blame her for being stupid and disrespectful of others. She is striking out in pain. Yeah, I get that. Doesn’t make her right about what she did. Was Kirby a bit of an insensitive “man” for criticizing her, well, yeah but he has never been raped and doesn’t get it. Forgive him for being insensitive at least till you know he should know better.

As far as his response to criticism...eh

As far as his comment to the woman who should have been treated like a fellow Sunstone speaker, not a call girl, well that was a joke that sure wasn’t funny told to someone with too little experience with boorish behavior to stand up for herself. So, yeah, I hold her partly at fault for not drawing a line at his first ignorant comment. When women try to hide that they are offended, well, how is a man supposed to know she was offended? SHE needs to learn boundaries just exactly as much as Kirby does. It was a bad joke. I have had men that I respected make bad sexist jokes and I told them to cut it out. If they learned, I didn’t lose any respect for them. If they continued, I ended any contact or made my complaint official. One was a college professor and I told him his”jokes” were highly inappropriate and cut it out. He apologized and it didn’t happen again. Another college professor, same thing and he didn’t cut it out, so I complained to the department chair who brushed it off, so I went to the dean of women.

Part of consent is women need to learn to say “no”. Otherwise how are guys supposed to know when they do not have consent?

That is a two way street and a woman can’t cry “victim” if she never said no to begin with.

So, I am disappointed in Kirby, but not horrified. His biggest crime seems to be he is a guy who hasn’t been woke. This is his wake up call. Let’s see how he does from now on.

The MJ, well, that could get him jail time, so that is just stupid.
On the flipside, by the time they are 11 years old, most women are well aware that pushing back against a man's ego can result in violence or death. She didn't say no and tried to keep composure in a humiliating situation because most of us are aware of how it can go wrong.

Kirby may not be raping and killing women who push back, but like all men, he can and does benefit from the men who do as its keeping women careful in their reactions.
Yes, so true. Too true. I don’t blame women who freeze. Or don’t know how to handle a tough situation. And easy for me to say they need to learn to stand up for themselves. I had so many rape victims who blamed themselves because they froze. Even one man. Oh, and the church threw the book at him, because men don’t freeze, the do as Joseph and leave their clothing in the seductriss’s clutches and run. But he was a child sexual abuse victim, raped for years by his father, and got in a bad situation with a woman and froze.

But I taught my rape victims that rapists look for the easy mark. They pick the women who don’t, or can’t fight back. And if you surprise them by fighting back, some 50% give up and find an easier victim. 1% gets angry and it gets worse than it would have been. If you meet up with the kind of rapist who is going to kill you, it doesn’t make a difference what you do. But most men back down with pushback. Of course, you won’t get the job or whatever, like the women in Hollywood who wanted to please the Weinsteins of the world, you be victim to their sexual crap, or give up the job to someone who will.

That is what makes Kirby’s behavior despicable. He didn’t pick a woman who would slap his rude crude face. He picked a pretty young thing who worshipped him as some kind of hero. He didn’t do it to a woman who was his own age, and felt safe enough to push back. He picked someone have power over.

And part of the whole problem is how we socialize women to please others. Society needs to change. Lots of men need sensitivity training like Kirby is going to get. And *lastly* women need to claim the power they have to push back. *smallest part of this problem

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Re: ...the great Robert Kirby — gave me weed

Post by Wonderment » Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:20 pm

It's not the first time that sexist remarks have been made at Sunstone by men who perhaps believed that Sunstone attendants had a more libertine attitude towards sex and sexual talk than traditional Mormon women. A couple of prior incidents were discussed on the FMH blog.

Kirby's mistake is in "assuming" that Kendrick gave consent to being part of a pretend game about being an escort call girl who wanted marijuana edibles.
His excuse, and the excuse used most often by apologists of harrassment is "she never spoke up and said 'No', so I thought she was just playing along with me and was consenting." This was his mistake.

As women raised in a patriarchal system, we have been conditioned to smile and act polite, even to the most boorish of well-known older men. We've been taught NEVER to say or do anything that might hurt his feelings or offend him. We've been taught that ANY reaction we might give would be considered an over-reaction and would be inappropriate. How often have we heard, "Oh, don't be so sensitive, dear. He was just trying to be friendly, trying to make a joke, trying to start a conversation. Lighten up, dear. "

Here's an answer to the well-meaning, but tone dear question: "Well, how do i know that she doesn't like my (creepy, inappropriate) joking and flirting, if she doesn't say anything? If she doesn't say anything, then how am I to know?" It is HER fault, if she doesn't speak up, because her uncomfortable silence means that she is giving consent." I strongly disagree with this.

To Kirby and to people who think it is the women's fault if she says nothing -- Uncomfortable silence does NOT imply consent, nor should you blame the woman for sending confusing signals -- "But I thought she was liberated and liked sexual remarks and joking because she is at Sunstone." WRONG.

To Kirby :Unless you ASK for consent, you have no place to believe that the other person will give consent. Uncomfortable silence or nervous laughter does not mean consent - Wndr.

Rather than saying, " She never said anything, so she misled me; and it is her fault", the question is "If you wanted to engage in sexual joking and drug use, WHY didn't you ask for consent in advance?" --Wndr

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Re: ...the great Robert Kirby — gave me weed

Post by Wonderment » Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:08 pm

So, yeah, I hold her partly at fault for not drawing a line at his first ignorant comment. When women try to hide that they are offended, well, how is a man supposed to know she was offended?
This is from the old school of rape counseling that says that the victim is to blame for doing something wrong; otherwise, it wouldn't have happened. It's her fault, because he took her for being an easy mark, because she didn't speak out. The complete onus is on her, because she did the wrong thing.

I strongly disagree. Why isn't the burden on him for not asking consent? "Hey, we're at Sunstone, where we are not supposed to be constrained by traditional Mormon ideas of sexual propriety, so why don't we role play that you're a sex worker, and I'll give you some drugs to "relax" you??
Why isn't the burden on him to ask for consent rather than assume she is an easy mark?

When rape victims are told, "Well, the man will assume you are an easy mark, unless you speak up", in old school counseling, we never ask ourselves "WHY", would he assume that? Is it because of his patriarchal entitlement to believe that he knows what women are thinking? His patriarchal entitlement to sex? No one ever confronts the man -- " Did you ask for consent, or did you just suddenly decide that the conversation would be about sex with a sex worker who needed drugs, and whom you could later characterize as the butt of a joke for being as easy mark? "

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Re: ...the great Robert Kirby — gave me weed

Post by Anon70 » Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:11 pm

Wonderment wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:08 pm
So, yeah, I hold her partly at fault for not drawing a line at his first ignorant comment. When women try to hide that they are offended, well, how is a man supposed to know she was offended?
This is from the old school of rape counseling that says that the victim is to blame for doing something wrong; otherwise, it wouldn't have happened. It's her fault, because he took her for being an easy mark, because she didn't speak out. The complete onus is on her, because she did the wrong thing.

I strongly disagree. Why isn't the burden on him for not asking consent? "Hey, we're at Sunstone, where we are not supposed to be constrained by traditional Mormon ideas of sexual propriety, so why don't we role play that you're a sex worker, and I'll give you some drugs to "relax" you??
Why isn't the burden on him to ask for consent rather than assume she is an easy mark?

When rape victims are told, "Well, the man will assume you are an easy mark, unless you speak up", in old school counseling, we never ask ourselves "WHY", would he assume that? Is it because of his patriarchal entitlement to believe that he knows what women are thinking? His patriarchal entitlement to sex? No one ever confronts the man -- " Did you ask for consent, or did you just suddenly decide that the conversation would be about sex with a sex worker who needed drugs, and whom you could later characterize as the butt of a joke for being as easy mark? "
Yes to everything you said in both comments (that I wanted to say but am not articulate/smart enough to). thank you Wndr!!

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alas
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Re: ...the great Robert Kirby — gave me weed

Post by alas » Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:17 pm

Wonderment wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:08 pm
So, yeah, I hold her partly at fault for not drawing a line at his first ignorant comment. When women try to hide that they are offended, well, how is a man supposed to know she was offended?
This is from the old school of rape counseling that says that the victim is to blame for doing something wrong; otherwise, it wouldn't have happened. It's her fault, because he took her for being an easy mark, because she didn't speak out. The complete onus is on her, because she did the wrong thing.

I strongly disagree. Why isn't the burden on him for not asking consent? "Hey, we're at Sunstone, where we are not supposed to be constrained by traditional Mormon ideas of sexual propriety, so why don't we role play that you're a sex worker, and I'll give you some drugs to "relax" you??
Why isn't the burden on him to ask for consent rather than assume she is an easy mark?

When rape victims are told, "Well, the man will assume you are an easy mark, unless you speak up", in old school counseling, we never ask ourselves "WHY", would he assume that? Is it because of his patriarchal entitlement to believe that he knows what women are thinking? His patriarchal entitlement to sex? No one ever confronts the man -- " Did you ask for consent, or did you just suddenly decide that the conversation would be about sex with a sex worker who needed drugs, and whom you could later characterize as the butt of a joke for being as easy mark? "
Perhaps saying I hold her partly at “fault” is incorrect. Perhaps “ responsible” is better? She is responsible the same way a jewlrey store owner is responsible to put the diamond rings in a locked case. Not fault, but responsible.



And, second of all, I was a professional rape victim counselor for several years. What, pray tell, is your real experience in this field? Ever been a counselor to rape victims? Ever even been raped? Or just know key words in this topic?

I read what RAPISTS say will help prevent rape. I am not “old school” any more than you are a blooming I....

I spent more time in counseling my rape victims on rape prevention than I ever did with “it wasn’t your fault.” What they all wanted to know was prevention, as well as the idea that nothing they did made them *****deserve****** what happened. See, “fault” wasn’t the issue so much as, “did I deserve it?” They KNEW they did nothing to want rape, but were they the kind of person who deserves it? shame as opposed to guilt. They felt no guilt! But tons of shame. Shame as in this has turned me into a licked cupcake, not that I did anything wrong, but I am now a licked cupcake. Shame. What I am, not what I did

Which is perhaps why I used a word that came out wrong.

There is a BIG difference between blame and doing what you can for PREVENTION. You know, even more than the victims wanted to be told that it was not their fault, they wanted to be told how to prevent rape from happening again. Well, I just told you one way to prevent rape, and you go into your feminist goblelty gook. No, it is Never, never, never the victims fault. But there are things you can do to make yourself a less likely victim, Sorry, but there is such a thing as risk avoidance. And women need to be taught what is high risk behavior and what lowers the risk.

It is like a store owner is never at fault for shop lifter’s behavior. But they still keep diamond rings is a locked case. They have a responsibility to keep the rings locked up to prevent theft. That is lowering their risk. This woman was like the shop keeper who puts diamond rings in on open basket where no one can see if someone picks up one. Was the store owner at fault? No, but they were sure as hell stupid.

Sitting silently and letting someone walk all over your boundaries does not make you at fault for what happens. But if you want it to happen over and over, just reassure yourself it is not your fault and that it is just that all men are ass hats. And I can promise you it is going to keep happening. Because the reality is that some men are AHs.

I said this young woman needs to learn to stand up for herself and I stand by what I said. It wasn’t her FAULT, but she is responsible for her boundaries. No body else is ever going to enforce her boundaries. She has to learn to do it. It is HER responsibility to learn to enforce her boundaries. Not just whine to the media when her boundaries are violated. What Kirby said was no crime. It was tactless and a violation of any females boundaries. But your boundaries are your responsibility to maintain. That may be harsh, but it is real life.

The TRUTH is that rapists often check out their victim. Will she take sexist jokes. Will she let the man order for her in a restaurant. Will she put up with him touching her. Or does she push back? Doesn’t make raper her fault if she gets raped. It is just one way to lower her risk.

My clients who had been raped didn’t want me to tell them that it wasn’t their fault. They wanted to know how to lower their risk of it happening again. Then they could stop living in terror. Yes, we worked on any self blame the victim had, because sometimes that was an issue. But what struck me as backwards was the women who had gone to the bar and met the guy one week out of prison and took him home, she had less self blame than the 86 year old in her own bed at 2 in the morning. She knew her behavior was stupid and knew never to do that again. But the woman who truly did nothing that was at all a risk, she was the one who asked over and over and over, “why did he pick me?” “What did I do wrong?” “What did I do?”

Our society has got to BOTH teach women to avoid risky behavior, AND teach women that they are never at fault for men”s choices.

I get SOOOOO sick of fellow feminists who have never been raped talking about we shouldn’t tell women to X, Y, or Z because then when they are raped they will blame themselves. No, we SHOULD teach women to push back when men say crap because that is what rapist tell us is most likely to prevent rape. We NEED to teach women to stand up for themselves because rapists look for women who don’t. We SHOULD tell women not to drink at frat parties, and to use a buddy system, and to never let their drink out of their sight, and all the REAL things women can do to reduce their risk. As far as what she was wearing, rapist say they are more likely to pick the woman who is overly modest, so we don’t teach that modesty prevents rape cause it doesn’t.

And we need to speak out about rape culture that blames women for men’s choices. But there is a difference between not knowing how, not understanding a situation is dangerous, and it being your fault. People who don’t get that difference are part of the problem. The victim is never at fault, but honestly, some of my rape victims were stupid, just like it s stupid not to put the diamond rings in a locked case. But, no, they were not at fault. But if they know better and still engage in high risk behavior, hey, I was honest with my clients and if they repeatedly engaged in high risk behavior, then I told them so. I held them responsible to take care f themselves to the best of their ability. Some didn’t. But they still were not at fault. Just engaging in high risk behavior.

Our society is realistic about teaching the jewelry store owners to lower their risk of being robbed but somehow it has become politically incorrect to teach women to lower their risk of sexual assault.

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alas
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Re: ...the great Robert Kirby — gave me weed

Post by alas » Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:25 pm

Society has a responsibility to

#1 teach men about consent
#2 teach women they can and need to stand up for themselves

So, in this situation with jerk man of the week, society failed both him and society failed her. Whose “fault” is it? Our whole screwed up society. Who has a responsibility to learn better? both Kirby and every woman who is too afraid to stand up for themselves.

Rants done for the week.

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Re: ...the great Robert Kirby — gave me weed

Post by Wonderment » Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:47 pm

So, in this situation with jerk man of the week, society failed both him and society failed her. Whose “fault” is it? Our whole screwed up society. Who has a responsibility to learn better? both Kirby and every woman who is too afraid to stand up for themselves.

Rants done for the week.
I disagree. The blame should be properly placed on the one who did the assaulting, not the recipient of the assault.

"You failed to defend yourself, so you are to blame", is NOT an acceptable excuse. Not for Sister Kendrick, not for Dr. Ford in the Kavanaugh case, not for anyone who suffers verbal or physical assault. -- Wndr.

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Raylan Givens
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Re: ...the great Robert Kirby — gave me weed

Post by Raylan Givens » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:06 pm

I wish they would have kept Rolly and got rid of Kirby.
"Ah, you know, I think you use the Bible to do whatever the hell you like" - Raylan Givens

Anon70
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Re: ...the great Robert Kirby — gave me weed

Post by Anon70 » Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:09 pm

alas wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:25 pm
Society has a responsibility to

#1 teach men about consent
#2 teach women they can and need to stand up for themselves

So, in this situation with jerk man of the week, society failed both him and society failed her. Whose “fault” is it? Our whole screwed up society. Who has a responsibility to learn better? both Kirby and every woman who is too afraid to stand up for themselves.

Rants done for the week.
I disagree-victim blaming and refusing to see how the patriarchy has oppressed women so they don’t know how to speak up contributes to rape culture. We all need to listen more to those not in power/victims and learn from their experience.

Edited phrasing

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wtfluff
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Re: ...the great Robert Kirby — gave me weed

Post by wtfluff » Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:50 am

Red Ryder wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:47 pm
What about the marijuana?
That's one thing that no-one has brought up in this thread: Kirby was probably "baked" during the entire time period when he was being an idiot.

(Doesn't justify his actions, he might be an idiot all the time for all I know. Just one more piece in the puzzle.)
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

Who taught you how to hate?

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alas
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Re: ...the great Robert Kirby — gave me weed

Post by alas » Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:58 am

Wonderment wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:47 pm
So, in this situation with jerk man of the week, society failed both him and society failed her. Whose “fault” is it? Our whole screwed up society. Who has a responsibility to learn better? both Kirby and every woman who is too afraid to stand up for themselves.

Rants done for the week.
I disagree. The blame should be properly placed on the one who did the assaulting, not the recipient of the assault.

"You failed to defend yourself, so you are to blame", is NOT an acceptable excuse. Not for Sister Kendrick, not for Dr. Ford in the Kavanaugh case, not for anyone who suffers verbal or physical assault. -- Wndr.


No!!!,!

That is NOT what I am saying. Not at all.

What I am saying is can we talk about her reaction AFTER the crappy behavior of the man. Not before, or during. The creep is 100% responsible for his creepy behavior. 100% no if ands and buts.

After the creep was a creep, can we please teach women to stand up to creeps. It doesn’t undo his being a creep, but maybe next time he will realize that women don’t like creeps. And she comes out of the creep interaction feeling better about herself.

But obviously nobody cares about next time, or how she feels about herself next week, so let’s just crucify the creep and never teach women that they have permission to stand up to creeps.

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