Fact-checking Saints... Chapter 27 up 10/21 (Rigdon's fiery speeches, Danites, Elijah Able, Tithing)

Discussions toward a better understanding of LDS doctrine, history, and culture. Discussion of Christianity, religion, and faith in general is welcome.
User avatar
deacon blues
Posts: 823
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 7:37 am

Re: Fact-checking Saints... Chapter 9 up 9/26 (Hiram's seer stone, who are the Lamanites, and Sidney Rigdon)

Post by deacon blues » Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:23 pm

I am enjoyed partaking of your comments on Chapter 1. Now if only I could get wife wife to partake. ;)
God is Love. God is Truth

jfro18
Posts: 380
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:41 pm

Re: Fact-checking Saints... Chapter 9 up 9/26 (Hiram's seer stone, who are the Lamanites, and Sidney Rigdon)

Post by jfro18 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:18 pm

deacon blues wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:23 pm
I am enjoyed partaking of your comments on Chapter 1. Now if only I could get wife wife to partake. ;)
Same here... she knows about the site, but I don't think that she's read much of it if anything... one day, maybe.

jfro18
Posts: 380
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:41 pm

Re: Fact-checking Saints... Chapter 21 up 10/13 (Tons of Kirtland visions, Elias and Elijah, Fanny, Joseph Sr Blessings)

Post by jfro18 » Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:15 am

I just did chapter 21 today...

The Kirtland stuff is insane. The amount of visions, meetings with Christ, and speaking in tongues after either having oil rubbed on the head or drinking wine is just too much to believe.

And then I started reading some of the presentations I had seen on here before about how Joseph might've been using psychedelics in the wine/oils... I am starting to be a believer.

Anyone read this before from Robert Beckstead @ Sunstone? http://www.mormonthink.com/files/restor ... shroom.pdf

There's also a more recent Sunstone presentation I need to watch fully at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9OCSkqec5A

It makes so much sense although it seems so conspiratorial... I really have a hard time with it but it's the only thing that makes sense as to how so many could have these visions but ONLY when Joseph is there giving them wine or oil.

User avatar
deacon blues
Posts: 823
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 7:37 am

Re: Fact-checking Saints... Chapter 21 up 10/13 (Tons of Kirtland visions, Elias and Elijah, Fanny, Joseph Sr Blessings)

Post by deacon blues » Sat Oct 13, 2018 6:46 pm

This is ahead of where you are in "Saints" but whoever wrote Chapter 42 is very intent on discrediting William Law. They do so by calling him an adulterer, first by quoting from Alexander Neibaur's journal, which quotes Joseph Smith as saying, "William Law was an adulterous man." (We all know that Joseph was prone to making accusations and lying to protect himself, (for example Sarah Pratt, and the famous "7 wives...I can only find one" statement) Second they quote Hyrum Smith from several sources that led me back to the Nauvoo Council Minutes 241-42, where Hyrum says that "Wm Law when sick confessed and said he had been guilty of adultery & he was not fit to live or die." The problem is that Hyrum made this statement immediately after he said: "the revelation read to the [Nauvoo Stake] High council(D&C 132) that it was in answer to a question concerning things which transpired in former days & had no reference to the present time"; which is dishonest. In April of 1844 Hyrum knew better.

The problem with "Saints" is its bias; and that it cherry picks its quotes.
God is Love. God is Truth

jfro18
Posts: 380
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:41 pm

Re: Fact-checking Saints... Chapter 21 up 10/13 (Tons of Kirtland visions, Elias and Elijah, Fanny, Joseph Sr Blessings)

Post by jfro18 » Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:59 pm

deacon blues wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 6:46 pm
The problem with "Saints" is its bias; and that it cherry picks its quotes.
This pretty much sums it up 100% -- The church released the book as the "Standard of Truth" that tackled their most difficult topics head-on, yet as I've been reading the book it's even less honest than the essays were.

They skate right by difficult topics, they present one side of things like the Charles Anthon visit, and they never reference the changes Joseph made or the many discrepancies in the history.

Truthfully if I had more time this would be so much longer - I'm just reading it and kind of doing it on the fly. Yesterday I spent more time researching the psychedelic stuff because I had read some of that here and wanted to quote from it, but usually it's much faster.

But at the end of the day they don't care - the target audience here are members who have not dipped their toes into any critical resources, so they can be inoculated at least partially to these topics. I get the feeling they know they can't hold those who are open to the other side, and aren't even really trying on some level.

User avatar
Hagoth
Posts: 2161
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:13 pm

Re: Fact-checking Saints... Chapter 21 up 10/13 (Tons of Kirtland visions, Elias and Elijah, Fanny, Joseph Sr Blessings)

Post by Hagoth » Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:03 am

Sorry, haven't taken the time to read but I hope you included the flying riverboat visions.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

jfro18
Posts: 380
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:41 pm

Re: Fact-checking Saints... Chapter 21 up 10/13 (Tons of Kirtland visions, Elias and Elijah, Fanny, Joseph Sr Blessings)

Post by jfro18 » Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:59 am

Hagoth wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:03 am
Sorry, haven't taken the time to read but I hope you included the flying riverboat visions.
Hah the flying steamboat is absolutely in there.

I am amazed every day I read Saints. Today is about Parley Pratt getting a "revelation" from Heber Kimball that if he goes on a mission he will have his debts paid off, his ailing wife will be healthy, and he will finally have a kid.

All three happen... and Pratt wrote about it 20 years later as a prophecy fulfilled. I hate to just dismiss people's stories, but someone writing this 20 years after the fact when we know how the other faith promoting stories have held up is quite convenient.

And the revelation to go to Salem to search for treasure gets a paragraph to completely not describe what Joseph was doing there. The balls that the people writing this book have are quite large to constantly avoid discussing any of the troubling things about the history and doctrines of the church.

User avatar
FiveFingerMnemonic
Posts: 936
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:50 pm
Contact:

Re: Fact-checking Saints... Chapter 21 up 10/13 (Tons of Kirtland visions, Elias and Elijah, Fanny, Joseph Sr Blessings)

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Sun Oct 14, 2018 8:10 pm

jfro18 wrote:
Hagoth wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:03 am
Sorry, haven't taken the time to read but I hope you included the flying riverboat visions.
Hah the flying steamboat is absolutely in there.

I am amazed every day I read Saints. Today is about Parley Pratt getting a "revelation" from Heber Kimball that if he goes on a mission he will have his debts paid off, his ailing wife will be healthy, and he will finally have a kid.

All three happen... and Pratt wrote about it 20 years later as a prophecy fulfilled. I hate to just dismiss people's stories, but someone writing this 20 years after the fact when we know how the other faith promoting stories have held up is quite convenient.

And the revelation to go to Salem to search for treasure gets a paragraph to completely not describe what Joseph was doing there. The balls that the people writing this book have are quite large to constantly avoid discussing any of the troubling things about the history and doctrines of the church.
Pratt was a fine teller of tall tales who conveniently lived off his publishing income. I remember being amazed by his stories in his autobiography, only to later read the debunked version in the recent "Parley Pratt the Apostle Paul of Mormonism" book by Givens.

My personal fav is his tale of seeing floating masonic symbols in the night sky.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests