NOM

Does the LDS Church (COJCOLDS) believe each person has the right to live a life of dignity with access to basic necessities in a safe and sustainable environment?

I think the leaders would say they do, but give the resources at their disposal their actions do not indicate such

I think the church believes it's "a jungle out there" and you need our advise (and possibly even a little support occasionally) to help you lessen the pain that inevitably comes to everyone in this temporal state.

Plus, they can help you with that afterlife thing as well.

To most LDS and conservatives the Shangri la you describe only exists in people's dreams.

That is if I understand you correctly.

moksha wrote: ↑Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:21 pm Does the LDS Church (COJCOLDS) believe each person has the right to live a life of dignity with access to basic necessities in a safe and sustainable environment?

I think that's what Jesus would do, so the answer is no.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:21 pm

moksha wrote: ↑Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:21 pm Does the LDS Church (COJCOLDS) believe each person has the right to live a life of dignity with access to basic necessities in a safe and sustainable environment?

I think that's what Jesus would do, so the answer is no.

Savage!

Hagoth wrote: ↑Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:21 pm
I think that's what Jesus would do, so the answer is no.

And he's the only one who could accomplish it as well.

moksha wrote: ↑Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:21 pm Does the LDS Church (COJCOLDS) believe each person has the right to live a life of dignity with access to basic necessities in a safe and sustainable environment?

No. If they did, they wouldn't preach to pay them (a multi-billion dollar corporation) before you pay your bills or buy food for your children.

moksha wrote: ↑Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:21 pm Does the LDS Church (COJCOLDS) believe each person has the right to live a life of dignity with access to basic necessities in a safe and sustainable environment?

ONLY after they pay their tithing and IF they are middle to upper class white people who are regular temple recommend holders AND IF they are not gay.

moksha wrote: ↑Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:21 pm Does the LDS Church (COJCOLDS) believe each person has the right to live a life of dignity with access to basic necessities in a safe and sustainable environment?

Yes to basic necessities - no to dignity. It does not treat its members with dignity, not even the faithful ones, therefore you would have a hard time convincing me that they believe each person has the right to live a life of dignity.

But they do provide basic necessities through the welfare program.

1smartdodog wrote: ↑Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:39 pm I think the leaders would say they do, but give the resources at their disposal their actions do not indicate such

A part of the difficulty in communicating these days is the presence of so much doublespeak that's impossible to have an un-muddied conversation. The Sophists used to teach rhetoric from the position that argument isn't so much about discovering truth as it is to win the argument. In that respect, any question which requires an answer that's negative toward the church will be immediately spun into something positive sounding. It's just enough obfuscation to where we have a population who develop a private language with private definitions. It's how the church can claim to have never been racist, homophobic, sexist, or any other similar modern negative. They simply redefine the words until they don't match what the church used to do, and then keep the definitions secret. How do you even begin having a conversation when the use of language has been so distorted that communication becomes impossible?

Just looking at the behavior of the church, with its emphasis on obedience and conformity, we can objectively say that the church believes in the dignity of the organization and not the individual. The entire program is collectivist, and it is aimed at erasing individual thoughts, purpose, and desires in order to replace them with the thoughts, purpose, and desires of the group. Unlike other religions, Mormonism was and continues to be an organization whose ultimate aim is to create a governing institution which can take over the world at the coming of Christ. People wonder why they stock pile money and land, and why they focus on missionary work at the expense of charitable service. It's because charity and service aren't particularly useful toward their mission.

I know individual members of the church do reach out and do lots of good in the world, but the institution as a whole doesn't exist for that purpose. The church is proto-zion, an organization of monarchy with kings, queens, and servants. This is not an organization that recognizes the dignity of individuals, but it is a judge, a judge who determines individual worth according to what use they are or aren't toward serving the hierarchy. It's a great irony to me that a people who so readily and radically argue for liberty and capitalism have so fully committed themselves to a totalitarian and communist ideology.

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:37 am Yes to basic necessities - no to dignity. It does not treat its members with dignity, not even the faithful ones, therefore you would have a hard time convincing me that they believe each person has the right to live a life of dignity.

But they do provide basic necessities through the welfare program.

In my experience, while they can provide basic necessities, whether or of the actually do is a completely different story. It is a matter of leadership roulette coupled with leadership trying to make the best use of a budget that is pathetically underfunded for an organization with it's resources.

In my experience, whether or not the church will help with basic needs is very much dependent on how good of a member they think you are or will be. This help is usually conditional on the person receiving it complying with various conditions.

On my mission, I watched bishops set all manner or requirements on people in order to get aid.

In my local ward, one very popular TBM family got major assistance during a job loss. They got mortgage, utility, & food assistance. Another family had major assistance with an adoption to the the of over $10K, even though their employer basically covered all the fees associated with it. Me? When I was laid off, the ward did jack shit to help me out. Once they offered a prayer for me in PEC meeting. No one even as much as sent me a heads up on a job posting.

Yes, I am bitter on that end. The people who claim to want what's best for you and put themselves up as th models of being followers of Christ, they also have no trouble turning their back on you if you don't two the party line. I had way more from Facebook friends and the ham radio club I am part of. They were regularly sending me job posting, offered to watch the kids while I went on interviews, and otherwise asking what they could do to help. I would say they were much more Christian than any local Mormon was.

oliver_denom wrote: ↑Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:15 am Mormonism was and continues to be an organization whose ultimate aim is to create a governing institution which can take over the world at the coming of Christ.

I agree with most everything you've said except this.

In my opinion, if the circumstances were right, the church wouldn't wait for the coming of Christ. They would take over in a heartbeat if they thought they could get away with it, "Coming" or no coming. Christ or no Christ.

And then you would see their true colors. And it would be really ugly. Conform or be cast off. "We know this hurts but we're doing it for your own good....you should be thanking us."

Palerider wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:29 pmIn my opinion, if the circumstances were right, the church wouldn't wait for the coming of Christ. They would take over in a heartbeat if they thought they could get away with it, "Coming" or no coming. Christ or no Christ.

Mormons have been living with the "White Horse" prophecy sense JSj. The idea of them riding into rescue the nation from the government so they can take over is ingrained to the core of Mormon doctrine, even if they don't want to admit it.

Yes, but not in this life. Your job is to give them all your time and money in this life, with the promise that you will have all the treasures of heaven in the next.
Adding: this reminds me of the Nigerian price who has a lot of money and will share it all with you if you will just send him a few thousand dollars now to help the money go through customs and processing.

Random wrote: ↑Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:11 pm

moksha wrote: ↑Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:21 pm Does the LDS Church (COJCOLDS) believe each person has the right to live a life of dignity with access to basic necessities in a safe and sustainable environment?

No. If they did, they wouldn't preach to pay them (a multi-billion dollar corporation) before you pay your bills or buy food for your children.

Exactly. They wouldn’t charge for worthiness - & they wouldn’t based it on income rather than scriptural increase. Even TBMs should get that obvious corruption. Also, if they did believe each had a right to life etc, they would obey the law of tithing by giving tithes to the poor - but Oaks admited they don’t.

In theory, they’d like to say they follow Christ but in practice, they follow their own Mormonism. No matter what name changes are attempted... “a rose by any other name is still a rose...”

Just This Guy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:48 pm

Palerider wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:29 pmIn my opinion, if the circumstances were right, the church wouldn't wait for the coming of Christ. They would take over in a heartbeat if they thought they could get away with it, "Coming" or no coming. Christ or no Christ.

Mormons have been living with the "White Horse" prophecy sense JSj. The idea of them riding into rescue the nation from the government so they can take over is ingrained to the core of Mormon doctrine, even if they don't want to admit it.

I'll freely admit I'm mostly conservative in my politics. But no way did I want Mitt Romney in the White House. Scary thought.

Talk about delusions of grandeur....

Palerider wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 6:07 pm

Just This Guy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:48 pm

Palerider wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:29 pmIn my opinion, if the circumstances were right, the church wouldn't wait for the coming of Christ. They would take over in a heartbeat if they thought they could get away with it, "Coming" or no coming. Christ or no Christ.

Mormons have been living with the "White Horse" prophecy sense JSj. The idea of them riding into rescue the nation from the government so they can take over is ingrained to the core of Mormon doctrine, even if they don't want to admit it.

I'll freely admit I'm mostly conservative in my politics. But no way did I want Mitt Romney in the White House. Scary thought.

Talk about delusions of grandeur....

Ah, yes, Mittens. A man eminently unsuited for a run at the Presidency. And why did he come to Utah to run for the Senate? Because he lived there most of his life and has strong roots in Utah? Nope. It was because he knew he would have broad support from Mormons there simply because he is a prominent Mormon. It was the only state in the whole nation he could absolutely count on getting elected if he ran for the Senate. Not to get too political, but Mitt Romney is a carpetbagger, and the good people of Utah fell for it.

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:18 am ...he knew he would have broad support from Mormons there simply because he is a prominent Mormon. It was the only state in the whole nation he could absolutely count on getting elected if he ran for the Senate.... and the good people of Utah fell for it.

And Mormons fall for this stuff because in their undying quest for legitimacy and popularity, they are enthralled with Mormon celebrity and Mormon hero worship.

Mormon Living magazine feeds them a constant diet of adoration of church leadership and Mormon celebrities. It's disgusting. Can anyone imagine this happening in the ancient church???

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:37 am

moksha wrote: ↑Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:21 pm Does the LDS Church (COJCOLDS) believe each person has the right to live a life of dignity with access to basic necessities in a safe and sustainable environment?

Yes to basic necessities - no to dignity. It does not treat its members with dignity, not even the faithful ones, therefore you would have a hard time convincing me that they believe each person has the right to live a life of dignity.

But they do provide basic necessities through the welfare program.

Yeah, I'd have to agree with this. I can't count the number of times I was told by my higher ups, "now bishop, we support life, not a lifestyle." So dignity had nothing to do with it. I'll always remember one of the EQP insisting that a member sell his widescreen TV (which was expensive at the time, I grant that, in the late 90s) before I should give him assistance. I just helped anyways - they may have had a widescreen TV, but their apartment was very small and they did try to live within their means, they just had some bad luck. Virtue signalling goes deep.

I love the argument put forward by some of the more affluent people in our ward that the poor are living a life of luxury on their tax dime. I'm not wealthy, but I'm not truly poor either, and I wouldn't trade places with anybody I know on government benefits. Not a friggin' single one of them. It's a lie borne out of jealousy, and if anybody uses it to attack the poor they should be ashamed of themselves.

Mormorrisey wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:59 pm

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:37 am

moksha wrote: ↑Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:21 pm Does the LDS Church (COJCOLDS) believe each person has the right to live a life of dignity with access to basic necessities in a safe and sustainable environment?

Yes to basic necessities - no to dignity. It does not treat its members with dignity, not even the faithful ones, therefore you would have a hard time convincing me that they believe each person has the right to live a life of dignity.

But they do provide basic necessities through the welfare program.

I love the argument put forward by some of the more affluent people in our ward that the poor are living a life of luxury on their tax dime. I'm not wealthy, but I'm not truly poor either, and I wouldn't trade places with anybody I know on government benefits. Not a friggin' single one of them. It's a lie borne out of jealousy, and if anybody uses it to attack the poor they should be ashamed of themselves.

You're right they should be ashamed of themselves. That is an important point. Some of the hardest working people I've known have been on government assistance, working backbreaking, menial jobs, while some wealthy guy in a suit who was born into a family with means that gave him connections and a good education goes on about how his tax dollars are supporting laziness. Can there be anything less Christlike than blaming the poor for being poor? But hey, it helps some wealthy people feel like they are better than other people, and that is what some (to be fair, not all) wealthy people are all about.