The Plain of Olishem

[Hagoth]

I have tried to watch some of the 3 Mormons YouTube videos, so far without much luck. One thing that I have seen on just about every one I watched was one of the guys tossing out "Olishem" as definitive evidence of the validity of Joseph Smith's prophetic calling. In the video where he's debating a Christian he literally yells "Olishem, Olishem, Olishem!" repeatedly.

The Gospel Topic essay about the translation of the Book of Abraham says:

The book of Abraham contains other details that are consistent with modern discoveries about the ancient world. The book speaks of “the plain of Olishem,” a name not mentioned in the Bible. An ancient inscription, not discovered and translated until the 20th century, mentions a town called “Ulisum,” located in northwestern Syria.

This is the best historic evidence they have for the Book of Abraham. I will agree with that. The problem is that even at that it is pretty lame evidence. First of all, the Book of Abraham itself clearly tells us that Abraham’s Olishem was NOT Ulisum in Syria. Abraham 1:10 says that the priests of Pharaoh offered human sacrifice “upon the altar which stood by the hill called Potiphar’s Hill, at the head of the plain of Olishem.” And verse 20 clarifies: “ Behold, Potiphar’s Hill was in the land of Ur, of Chaldea.” Ulisum and Ur are separated by a distance of about 1600 Kilometers!


Even LDS apologists cannot seem to agree on the basic details about this Olishem, like whether the name is Akkadian, Semitic, Egyptian or something else, or whether it refers to the place in Syria, or to Jerusalem, Egypt, or somewhere else. So this is far from the bullseye advertised. But there are bigger problems with Book of Abraham names. Abraham tells us that he grew up among the Chaldeans undaunted, apparently, that Abraham’s story takes place centuries before there were any people who could be identified as Chaldeans. Also, the Priests of Pharaoh were located about 2000 Km in another direction, but to get to Ur they would have to travel over 3000 Km along trade routes. That’s quite a journey to perform an un-Egyptian act of human sacrifice to some random unknown gods who are not part of the Egyptian pantheon.

Finally, as if this coffin needed another nail, Ur sat in an ancient floodplain on the edge of a vast wetland. No hills, Potiphar’s or anyone else’s.

As tempting as it is, there's no reason to believe that Joseph's use of the word Olishem is nothing more than coincidentally similar-ish to the word Ulishum. The fact that Naram-Sim’s engraving wasn’t translated until the 20th century has no bearing on any of this.

[jfro18]

I've heard this used beyond the essay and I swear the people who use it know how problematic it is, but they just hope you don't bother looking at the details.

Apologetics are great as long as you don't do your own research to confirm what they're saying. They are like used car salespeople telling you not to look under the hood, because the problems you're hearing from the engine aren't really problems at all, but new opportunities to love the car even more.

[Palerider]

This little website expands somewhat on this subject.

"Joseph Smith was learning Hebrew at the time he was producing the Book of Abraham, and obviously using that knowledge in his text (“Kokaubeam” really is Hebrew for “stars”). He likely invented the name from Hebrew ‘olah’ (“burnt sacrifice” or “evil”) and ‘shem’ (“name”): “Olishem” is Smith’s made-up Hebrew word for “name of a place for evil sacrifice.”

https://faenrandir.github.io/a_careful_ ... e-for-boa/

Interesting reading.

[Hagoth]

This little website expands somewhat on this subject.

"Joseph Smith was learning Hebrew at the time he was producing the Book of Abraham, and obviously using that knowledge in his text (“Kokaubeam” really is Hebrew for “stars”). He likely invented the name from Hebrew ‘olah’ (“burnt sacrifice” or “evil”) and ‘shem’ (“name”): “Olishem” is Smith’s made-up Hebrew word for “name of a place for evil sacrifice.”

https://faenrandir.github.io/a_careful_ ... e-for-boa/

Interesting reading.

Awesome.

[Thoughtful]

A lot of apologetics rely on JS being functionally stupid. Clearly he was neither stupid nor illiterate. Most 10yo children can put together words in another language and guess at what it would mean. Sometimes even a blind squirrel finds a nut, but JS being able to come up with something with face validity using a awareness level understanding of Hebrew is probably better odds than mere chance.

[wtfluff]

Interesting. Why am I reminded of Nahom?

NAHOM NAHOM NAHOM!!!

[Hagoth]

NAHOM NAHOM NAHOM!!!

Great example.

NHM=Nahom (even though it's really Nehem). That COULDN'T possibly be a coincidence could it?

BUT

A city named Moroni on an island named Comore? Totally a coincidence.

Compare the odds. A made up word shares three letters with a real word. How much more unlikely that you randomly come up with TWO words that are tightly associated:

1- Moroni is a person physically located on a geographical feature (hill) named Comorah
2- Moroni is a settlement of people located on a geographical feature (island) named Comore

Plus, there is a connection between Joseph Smith and Moroni/Comore - adventure tales of Captain Kidd

But wait! Nahom is associated with an eastward turn! Just look at a map you might find in a 19th century Bible or schoolroom. There are four cardinal directions you can travel: north takes you back to Jerusalem, straight and west lead you into oceans. What's left?

[moksha]

Connecting dots, eh?

Okay, there was a city in ancient Egypt called Heliopolis and a Nephite prophet named Helaman. See the similarity in names? This proves everything was true, right?

Pertinent details - Heliopolis is the Latinized form of the Greek name Hēlioúpolis (Ἡλιούπολις), meaning "City of the Sun". Helios, the personified and deified form of the sun, was identified by the Greeks with the native Egyptian gods Ra and Atum, whose principal cult was located in the city.

Its native name was I͗wnw ("The Pillars"), whose exact pronunciation is uncertain because ancient Egyptian recorded only consonantal values. Its traditional Egyptological transcription is Iunu but it appears in biblical Hebrew as Ôn (אן‬) and Āwen (און‬), leading some scholars to reconstruct its pronunciation as *Āwanu. Variant transcriptions include Awnu and Annu.

The city also appears in the Old Kingdom Pyramid Texts as the "House of Ra".

[Hagoth]

The city also appears in the Old Kingdom Pyramid Texts as the "House of Ra".

"House of Ra" and "House of Israel" share the word "House." Coincidence? I don't think so.

The Nephites claimed to be from the House of Israel.

The Nephites built a temple, just like the old world Israelites AND the Egyptians.

Nibley claims that Egyptians wore white and green in their temples, as do modern day LDS temple goers.

One eternal round, folks.

[Hagoth]

The Maxwell Institute's absolutely precious apologetic for the Olishem problem is to fall back on their solution for the BoM geography problem. Just as there are two Cumorahs, we now know that the must be two Urs, the one that has been known for thousands of years and a new one that hasn't quite been actually discovered, but it would be hundreds of miles away in Anatolia. Even though it hasn't been found, this Ur would be conveniently close to Oylum Hoyuk, which, if it can be identified as Ullis might be Ulisum, which we can assume could possibly be the BoA's Olishem, but in an entirely different part of the Near East than the BoA seems to place it. The parsimony is a thing of beauty. In the summary of a paper that is cited in the endnotes of the BoA translation essay, John Gee really connects the rock solid dots for us:

If indeed tablets in Hittite from the site identify it as Ullis, then it is probably the Ulišum that NaramSin attacked and is a likely candidate for Olishem. If Oylum Höyük is Olishem, then Ur of the Chaldees should be one of the dozens of Middle Bronze II sites in the Kilis plain. We await further discoveries and publications.

Do you think these guys believe their own propaganda?

[jfro18]

A city named Moroni on an island named Comore? Totally a coincidence.

Compare the odds. A made up word shares three letters with a real word. How much more unlikely that you randomly come up with TWO words that are tightly associated:

1- Moroni is a person physically located on a geographical feature (hill) named Comorah
2- Moroni is a settlement of people located on a geographical feature (island) named Comore

Plus, there is a connection between Joseph Smith and Moroni/Comore - adventure tales of Captain Kidd

I've been reading the CES letter rebuttal from "former CES employee" Jim Bennett (he just released a new version which has been floating around on Twitter the last few days) where he insists that the Moroni/Comora cities on the maps were never around before JS's time.

I can't find anything to dispute that and honestly have spent no time trying, but he is adamant in his 372 page rebuttal the CES letter than there is no Moroni on the maps until after the BoM is done. He also slams that reference in regards to the Captain Kidd stuff too... and of course heavily leans on Hugh Nibley to clear it all up throughout his 372 page read (I've only skimmed through sections of it to get a feel of the problems).

Would love to find some maps from Joseph's time that has Moroni on there.

The Book of Abraham section is even more amazing in that rebuttal if anyone ever wants to spend time reading a very sarcastic, antagonistic reply to the CES Letter.

[Hagoth]

It would be equally bizarre that African Muslims would name their Island and city after the Book of Mormon! As far as I'm concerned you can take Captain Kidd off the table. Let's stick to the pure coincidence hypothesis. If Moroni/Cumore=Moroni/Cumorah could be a coincidence, how compelling is NHM=Nahom?

[jfro18]

I agree that Nahom is a ridiculous stretch when you take into account all of the details that you need to make it work, but unless we can find something in Joseph's time that shows Moroni was on a map I think it's a tough argument to make even though (as you've stated) there's absolute no reason that an African Muslim area would randomly choose that name.

Which I guess is what leaves us in that never-ending tug of war where apologists try to invent something out of nothing and we're accused of trying to prove a negative.

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

I spoke with John Hajicek about the comoros map question as he collects early maps. He confirmed there aren't any maps of comoros from that era. It's a poor theory for name origination.

Edited to add: John was referring to maps the Smith's would have connection to not any map in existence.

[Palerider]

I spoke with John Hajicek about the comoros map question as he collects early maps. He confirmed there aren't any maps of comoros from that era. It's a poor theory for name origination.

I don't know....

Have you read this Dialogue article?
Long and well researched but makes a case.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... YTAdpz1fdQ

[jfro18]

I don't know....

Have you read this Dialogue article?
Long and well researched but makes a case.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... YTAdpz1fdQ

They do have one map that predates the BoM which mentions Moroni (Meroni), but that then forces the critic to believe that Joseph happened across the one map that had it against all the others.

Personally I feel like there are so many better places to find footing, although as Hagoth has noted... how likely is it that these two names would be side by side like that elsewhere?

[Palerider]

I don't know....

Have you read this Dialogue article?
Long and well researched but makes a case.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... YTAdpz1fdQ

They do have one map that predates the BoM which mentions Moroni (Meroni), but that then forces the critic to believe that Joseph happened across the one map that had it against all the others.

Personally I feel like there are so many better places to find footing, although as Hagoth has noted... how likely is it that these two names would be side by side like that elsewhere?

Right.

What I had thought might be more likely was that the islands might have been mentioned in the literature that was available. We know Joseph had at least one book/pamphlet regarding Kidd's exploits.

The map may not have been the only source for the words and places. He could also have read them which may have spurred him to seek the area out on maps as well.

Bit of a stretch possibly but then as you and Hagoth point out the apologists are masters at stretching the possibilities.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

[Hagoth]

ETA: Oops, I missed Palerider's link to this article.

I spoke with John Hajicek about the comoros map question as he collects early maps. He confirmed there aren't any maps of comoros from that era. It's a poor theory for name origination.

That is not entirely true. Here is "Meroni" on Comore in a 1748 map:

Meroni.JPG (55.13 KiB) Viewed 11816 times

and a 1745 map:

Meroni2.JPG (45.58 KiB) Viewed 11816 times

It is definitely "Moroni" by the 1850s-60s, so it was probably being referred to as such in word-of-mouth accounts in Joseph Smith's day:

Moroni1.JPG (78.03 KiB) Viewed 11816 times

These maps are from a Dialogue article by Noel Carmack: https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-cont ... 3_412b.pdf

In his summary Carmack says:

It is compelling to think that Smith read of the island group, or heard of them while listening to old treasure-seeking seamen retell the legends of Kidd and roguish pirates of the Indian Ocean. In light of Jacque-Nicolas Bellin’s widely available chart of Anjouan, the idea is arresting—if not a probability—that Joseph Smith saw the island place names on this chart, as it featured the place names “Comore” and “Meroni” together for the first time.

So, whether or not Joseph Smith knew about it, Bennet's assertion that a Comoros settlement named Moroni, or at least Meroni, was not on maps before Joseph's time is incorrect. Of course, we have no way of knowing so we're left to one of three options:

1) Joseph heard or read the words in treasure digging tales and incorporated them into his own treasure digging tale.
2) Coincidence
3) Ancient Jews crossed the Atlantic and built a massive civilization that left no trace, but one of them came back to earth as an angel with a gold book that had two closely associated words on it that coincidentally matched two entirely unconnected but mutually associated words.This, of course is the only faithful answer but it is far and away much less likely than totally random coincidence.

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

I believe what John meant is there are no maps with provenance tied to the Smith's with that geographical information. That is the problem with saying for certain that Smith got his information from a specific source.

[Hagoth]

I believe what John meant is there are no maps with provenance tied to the Smith's with that geographical information. That is the problem with saying for certain that Smith got his information from a specific source.

Gotcha, and I totally agree. Unfortunately, there's no way to nail down what was or was not being talked about around the hearth or in mysterious midnight gatherings.