NOM

JS Teenagers: Warning, this is going to get ugly. Again there is more proof that he did NOT have sexual relations with these women than there is that he did but since he "married" them it must be for sex. Lets toss aside the fact that some of these so called marriages were "sealings" because we dont do that today therefore it couldn't have been that way then even tho it clearly was what they did if you read your history instead of believing someone that said he/she read the history. With your logic why are you not saying he was gay too? That would be worse than polygamy! Why not come out and say he was gay!? He sealed men to him so he must be gay! And completely give no credit to the poor 14 year old girl, yes girl, and her parents for telling Joseph HELL NO but then after having a life changing spiritual experience that in their hearts they knew it was what they needed to do. Dam those liars to hell! There are no spiritual experiences they are all wacked! And you left out the fact, that when women entered polygamy at a young age it is up to her to stay in that marriage when she becomes of age and wants to have sex. Yes it is weird to us that they would even allow a 15 year old to get sealed to a man and not have sex or kids then let them pick another man to be sealed to when she wants to actually play housewife. But thats what they did. With that perspective, then "marrying" 14 year old's can now just be "sealed" just like the man was sealed to a man and it is a TON less creepy than what you think it is. I dont care that you dont believe this I completely know why you dont because you didn't read about it. But keep your mind closed, it was all about sex and abortion and gayness. Dont take the time to read about it. Actually just read about the people that had bad experiences with polygamy and that will be your answer, disregard the good ones they must be lying. Abortion because he left no kids behind after all that sex so the molly mormon women he was "married" to also believed in abortions. It is the only logical path one can take since as you say it was all about sex. Even if you didnt say it was about sex your mind went there as you feel it is wrong to marry a 14 year old. I say it is weird to seal yourself to a 14 year old for eternity and not be playing house, but thats what they did. Its weird to seal a man to a man too but thats what they did. It is really weird why JS "married" a 53 year old too since it was all about sex. Ah but what about "marriage" to the married women!?!? Holy devil hugging crap! And while the hubby was on a mission!! Burn him at the stake! If you read church history, there was clearly a belief that JS and other leaders were doing the members a solid by sealing as many to them as they could for SALVATION! Wait it was just sex.....wait there were no kids? Wait the abortion thing! Thats it. Could not possibly be what the leaders and participants actually said it was, I know better than to believe them. Now if you have even read this far, I need to go back and admit that yes like I have said a thousand times, I see where people see this stuff in the history and loose a lung over it. But if they just look at more than JS married a 14 year old! they can see there are actually some possible explanations. But you have chosen not to believe in the church so just as my mind sees how this all fits, your mind refuses to fit it. We are both skewed from our perspectives which is why this is so fun to banter about with you! I will also say my search for truth in history is to find the explanations to the questions I have that prove/explain the church right. If I started out looking for proof that it was crap, I would have found that too. Hence again, we are both skewed/bias.

slavereeno wrote: ↑Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:14 pm

...
if you read your history instead of believing someone that said he/she read the history
...
He sealed men to him so he must be gay!
...

Dravin wrote: ↑Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:11 pm The fun thing about the LDS concept about the line of authority is you don't have to excuse Joseph you have to excuse every single LDS prophet. So you can argue that Joseph didn't sleep with multiple women, but Brigham did so you still have to defend it as moral behavior. You can argue that Joseph didn't marry teenagers because they weren't real marriages, but Brigham did so you still have to defend it as moral behavior. The only accusation you may not possibly be able to throw at Brigham that can be thrown at Joseph concerns some of the secrecy.

slavereeno wrote: ↑Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:14 pm

JS Teenagers: Warning, this is going to get ugly. Again there is more proof that he did NOT have sexual relations with these women than there is that he did ( I'd like to see this "proof". Call for reference) but since he "married" them it must be for sex. Lets toss aside the fact that some of these so called marriages were "sealings" because we dont do that today (I think we do do it that way. The reality is we are sealed in the temple and then are considered "married" and we go home and have sex.) therefore it couldn't have been that way then even tho it clearly was what they did if you read your history instead of believing someone that said he/she read the history. (Oh, like you believe what your apostles and apologists tell you the history means rather than using your own brain) With your logic why are you not saying he was gay too? That would be worse than polygamy! Why not come out and say he was gay!? He sealed men to him so he must be gay! (And why don't we seal men to men today? Was Joseph teaching a false doctrine? )And completely give no credit to the poor 14 year old girl, yes girl, and her parents for telling Joseph HELL NO but then after having a life changing spiritual experience that in their hearts they knew it was what they needed to do. (Or gave in to the enormous pressure) Dam those liars to hell! There are no spiritual experiences they are all wacked! And you left out the fact, that when women entered polygamy at a young age it is up to her to stay in that marriage ( Call for a reference here.) when she becomes of age and wants to have sex. Yes it is weird to us that they would even allow a 15 year old to get sealed to a man and not have sex or kids then let them pick another man to be sealed to when she wants to actually play housewife. But thats what they did. ("This is an explanation? "That's what they did"???)

With that perspective, then "marrying" 14 year old's can now just be "sealed" just like the man was sealed to a man and it is a TON less creepy than what you think it is. (No, it isn't...it's still as creepy as it was in the beginning. Having men sealed to men doesn't make it less so.) Idont care that you dont believe this I completely know why you dont because you didn't read about it. But keep your mind closed, it was all about sex and abortion and gayness. Dont take the time to read about it. Actually just read about the people that had bad experiences with polygamy and that will be your answer, disregard the good ones they must be lying. (Ever heard of Stockholm syndrome?) Abortion because he left no kids behind after all that sex so the molly mormon women he was "married" to also believed in abortions. It is the only logical path one can take since as you say it was all about sex. Even if you didnt say it was about sex your mind went there as you feel it is wrong to marry a 14 year old. I say it is weird to seal yourself to a 14 year old for eternity and not be playing house, but thats what they did. (Again with "that's what they did" That's no explanation. Doesn't make it right either.)I Its to seal a man to a man too but thats what they did. It is really weird why JS "married" a 53 year old too since it was all about sex. (What, you don't think 53 year old women have sex? Get real!) Ah but what about "marriage" to the married women!?!? Holy devil hugging crap! And while the hubby was on a mission!! Burn him at the stake! If you read church history, there was clearly a belief that JS and other leaders were doing the members a solid by sealing as many to them as they could for SALVATION! (So Joseph got permission to marry those wives BEFORE the men went on their missions, right? I mean he's doing them a "solid" right? So those husbands all approved, right?) Wait just sex.....wait there were no kids? Wait the abortion thing! Thats it. Could not possibly be what the leaders and participants actually said it was, (which was what? What did they say??? CFR) I know better than to believe them. Now if you have even read this far, I need to go back and admit that yes like I have said a thousand times, I see where people see this stuff in the history and loose a lung over it. But if they just look at more than JS married a 14 year old! they can see there are actually some possible explanations. But you have chosen not to believe in the church (No, I have chosen to believe in the truth rather than come up with implausible explanations to keep Joseph sacred) just as my mind sees how this all fits, your mind refuses to fit it. We are both skewed from our perspectives which is why this is so fun to banter about with you! I will also say my search for truth in history is to find the explanations to the questions I have that prove/explain the church right. If I started out looking for proof that it was crap, I would have found that too. (Wrong, if you had started out looking for proof that it was crap and it hadn't BEEN crap, you wouldn't have found any proof that it was.) Hence again, we are both skewed/bias. (I disagree...sorry... )

As I see it he sets up a straw-man: Slavereeno thinks every marriage and sealing was all about sex for Joseph Smith. I see this as a straw-man because I never said that, in prior emails I have stated clearly that I didn't think it was ALL about sex but that it was sometimes about sex. Then he destroys the straw-man and would like to claim victory in this point of conversation. There are some other fallacies here too like false equivalence. He will often throw an ad hominem argument in there too. Mostly pointing out my past failures and saying that if I have made mistakes then I have to allow for JS to make them also.

It is really weird why JS "married" a 53-year-old too since it was all about sex.

moksha wrote: ↑Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:10 pm

It is really weird why JS "married" a 53-year-old too since it was all about sex.

Not weird at all that JS would be attracted to GILS (Grandmothers I'de Love to Seal). After all, he was known for the famous prank at the School of the Prophets where he had the elders line up via the command, "Up against the wall mother sealers".

moksha wrote: ↑Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:10 pm Not weird at all that JS would be attracted to GILS (Grandmothers I'de Love to Seal).

Arcturus wrote: ↑Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:17 pm aren't the earliest primary sources pretty solid in that Emma and Oliver were pretty pissed about Joseph having his fling with Fanny Alger, and it was likely sexual in nature?

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:51 pm Ask him to take a step back and count all the dominos he sets up to support Joseph Smith as a prophet.

IT_Veteran wrote: ↑Thu Nov 29, 2018 4:48 pm Worse - if it was just for people to be saved - why wasn't Emma sealed to him until he got past wife #22?`
Why did the church lie about it?
Why did Joseph lie about it?

slavereeno wrote: ↑Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:14 pm Slavereeno thinks every marriage and sealing was all about sex for Joseph Smith.

Sealings for time and eternity included commitments and relationships during this life, generally including the possibility of sexual relations Eternity-only sealings indicated relationships in the next life alone. Evidence indicates that Joseph Smith participated in both types of sealings.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:55 am Second, when someone defends something this emotionally it's usually because they are also very bothered by it and are going to great lengths to convince both you and themselves otherwise.

Hagoth wrote: ↑Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:55 am

slavereeno wrote: ↑Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:14 pm Slavereeno thinks every marriage and sealing was all about sex for Joseph Smith.

First of all, I would refer you friend to the official essay:

Sealings for time and eternity included commitments and relationships during this life, generally including the possibility of sexual relations Eternity-only sealings indicated relationships in the next life alone. Evidence indicates that Joseph Smith participated in both types of sealings.

Second, when someone defends something this emotionally it's usually because they are also very bothered by it and are going to great lengths to convince both you and themselves otherwise.

moksha wrote: ↑Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:10 pm

It is really weird why JS "married" a 53-year-old too since it was all about sex.

Not weird at all that JS would be attracted to GILS (Grandmothers I'de Love to Seal). After all, he was known for the famous prank at the School of the Prophets where he had the elders line up via the command, "Up against the wall mother sealers".

moksha wrote: ↑Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:10 pm Not weird at all that JS would be attracted to GILS (Grandmothers I'de Love to Seal).

“I made a greater sacrifice than to give my life,” said Zina Huntington Jacobs, “for I never anticipated again to be looked upon as an honorable woman.”