NOM

I think therefore I am.- Descartes

I obey therefore I.......

I obey therefor I am useful.- Deacon

Shounds like something Out of Thomas the Tank Engine.

I think, therefore I am a really useful engine.

I think therefore I obey:
Cogito ergo oboedieritis

I think or I obey:
Nec puto sententiae

I do not speak Latin, but this is a dramatic change of grammar between the two phrases. Also:

Cogito ergo sum ego bibendum
I drink, therefore I am

I eat, therefore I excrete!

I think therefore I am.- Descartes

I obey therefore I am

brainwashed?

Okay, maybe that doesn't fit every situation, but I think I obeyed because I was convinced that if I didn't, I'd go to hell.

At work, I think, therefore I am useful. I obey some things, none of which curtail my thinking, and some of which are designed to encourage it. But if I thought women should stay home or LGBT people should stay quiet, I might feel like I'm obeying certain rules in order to be useful to people I disagree with.

I think it's important to remember that most believing Mormons haven't gone through a major change in beliefs that makes obedience seem oppressive or dehumanizing. Their actions on behalf of the church tend to be aligned with their thinking, and most feel like they're serving God.

FWIW, I like the fuller version of Descarte's principle by Thomas, but I'll expand it again: "I doubt [my existence], therefore I think, therefore I am."

Maybe there's a version of Deacon's principle for the nuanced believer: "I doubt [my beliefs], therefore I have faith, therefore I am useful [to God]."

Trying to work through an LDS message I have heard: Obedience is the first principle of the Gospel.

Obedience is the first principle of the Gospel.
Obedience is the first principle of slavery.
Therefore, the Gospel is slavery.

Wonder what Socrates would say about LDS messages?

The church needs a few people like Socrates to bring it back to reality. Sadly, people like Socrates sometimes get executed.The Church has the power to exclude and excommunicate, but (Thank God) not the power to execute those it judges. Unlike the Catholic Church, the LDS Church has not had that kind of power. There might have been some times in Church history where it seems apparent that Church leaders would have executed people if they could, but our apologist friends tells us that was just metaphor.

I think we all need to go out for a cup of coffee.

deacon blues wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:59 pm The church needs a few people like Socrates to bring it back to reality. Sadly, people like Socrates sometimes get executed.The Church has the power to exclude and excommunicate, but (Thank God) not the power to execute those it judges. Unlike the Catholic Church, the LDS Church has not had that kind of power. There might have been some times in Church history where it seems apparent that Church leaders would have executed people if they could, but our apologist friends tells us that was just metaphor.

Wife No 19 & Brigham's Destroying Angel books.

Deacon, I know you were talking tongue and cheek (a little...), but truth is, the LDS church leadership DID have the power to kill. And they used it. I'm sure you already know that, but for those who may read this thread, I posted those 2 book names. Read them...they are both VERY interesting...

Mackman wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:16 am I think we all need to go out for a cup of coffee.

Just one cup, right???

Just This Guy wrote: ↑Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:28 am Shounds like something Out of Thomas the Tank Engine.

I think, therefore I am a really useful engine.

Yes. This is still making me laugh a couple hours after reading it. It might help I'm hearing it in Ringo Starr's voice.